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A Mac LC, a Daynaport E / Z and *shudder* MacTCP

Scenario:

A Macintosh LC is to be connected to a home network via a Daynaport E / Z for printing to a Postscript printer & FTP / Gopher access. OpenTransport is no option since it requires a (fast) 68030, so we’re having to use MacTCP 2.06.

Available Hardware:

  • Macintosh LC with 10MB RAM running System 7.1
  • Daynaport E/Z (unfortunately no manual or docs :-/ )
  • RJ45 ethernet cable coming from a switch (which is fed from the DSL router)



Software:

  • This Daynaport Installer has been run (installing E / Z drivers 1.3.3 according to the readme)
  • MacTCP 2.06 is installed
  • AppleTalk 58.1.4 is installed
  • LocalTalk 58.2.2 is installed



What has been done:

  • The E/Z is connected via serial cable to the printer port of the LC.
  • The E/Z has a twisted pair transceiver plugged in that has the RJ45 cable in.
  • Both the transceivers lights and the Daynaport’s are lit, assuming the units work.



On the OS side:

  • AppleTalk in Chooser is activated
  • MacTCP is configured as the following:

    mactcp-settings.jpg.049d97e08e2736fcaaf93ebf07748a8d.jpg


     

I’m using Google’s Public DNS service here (IP: 8.8.8.8).

As Gateway address I've put in my router. (surprise, eh? :) )

The IP-address for the LC was just an unused one randomly chosen by me.

MacTCP 2.06 has LocalTalk activated.

Problem:

It’s not working.

Ok, ok … just kidding :) using MacTCP Watcher for debugging. It immediately reports a DNS lookup problem when starting but I figure that might just be a generic error. When trying to ping e.g. my DSL router I lose all packages, so something with the connection setup isn’t right. I have, however, no more idea of what I could do and am turning to ya’ll for help.

I've tried to connect to my the LC from my Power Mac G4 via Chooser / IP address but it get me a time-out.

Anyone got any idea what I’m missing here - or even happens to be a fellow E / Z user? (the later seem very rare these days)

Any help appreciated!

 

cheesestraws

Well-known member
It’s not working.
To send TCP/IP over LocalTalk, the computer has to encapsulate IP packets inside AppleTalk/DDP packets because you can't run IP directly over LT for various reasons.  You need a piece of software running on your Ethernet segment to deencapsulate this back to straight IP over Ethernet.  This can either be suitable software running on another mac, or @mactjaap here maintains https://www.macip.net/  which will do the same on either a raspberry pi or a virtual machine.

Edit: that said, I thought the E/Z was a SCSI to Ethernet adapter, not a LT bridge.  Can you send photos?

 
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MrFahrenheit

Well-known member
To send TCP/IP over LocalTalk, the computer has to encapsulate IP packets inside AppleTalk/DDP packets because you can't run IP directly over LT for various reasons.  You need a piece of software running on your Ethernet segment to deencapsulate this back to straight IP over Ethernet.  This can either be suitable software running on another mac, or @mactjaap here maintains https://www.macip.net/  which will do the same on either a raspberry pi or a virtual machine.

Edit: that said, I thought the E/Z was a SCSI to Ethernet adapter, not a LT bridge.  Can you send photos?
If I recall, I believe AppleTalk Internet Router is the software to do this, right ?

 

cheesestraws

Well-known member
If I recall, I believe AppleTalk Internet Router is the software to do this, right ?
No, that routes AppleTalk between network segments, it doesn't do IP at all.  The 'internet' in its name is in the old sense of the word, as in "between networks", which has become a bit confusing now.  I think the Apple software is called "Apple IP Gateway" or something, or there are a couple of other options from other companies.  I don't run a MacIP gateway myself at present, so I can't give any great insight into which is best or why...

edit for clarity: you can of course run your IP gateway and your AppleTalk router on the same computer, if you need both; Apple IP Gateway I believe specifically integrates with the Internet Router.  But they are independent bits of software that just happen to talk to each other.

 
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Being rather a networking dummie, I wasn’t aware of the inability to send TCP/IP over LocalTalk. Wow, you never stop learning.

Apple IP Gateway. I got some googling to do. Let's see if I can figure out an easy way to get this going ...

Thanks for the help, appreciated! :)

As requested, enclosing photos of the E / Z and the transceiver.

daynaport-front.jpg

daynaport-back.jpg

transceiver.jpg

dayna-transceiver.jpg

 

cheesestraws

Well-known member
Being rather a networking dummie, I wasn’t aware of the inability to send TCP/IP over LocalTalk. Wow, you never stop learning.
It's really because AppleTalk and LocalTalk used to be a single system, just called "AppleTalk"—it was only split into the AppleTalk "layer 3" (packet) protocol and the LocalTalk layer 1/2 protocol later.  So really AppleTalk was designed around LocalTalk (and even when you run it over Ethernet, it has certain limitations that are derived from how LocalTalk works).

In theory, according to Inside AppleTalk, you can run multiple protocols over LocalTalk, but they'd all suffer from the same limitations that AppleTalk does on that medium.  So one could write an IP stack that hooked directly into the LocalTalk medium, but it would have huge limitations on things like packet size that would make it very inefficient and extremely painful to interact with  pretty much any other IP network.  So I assume this is why they didn't do that, and instead went for a tunnel type approach that allowed them to abstract away some of the weirdnesses of the medium.

edit: Thanks for the photos!  Yeah, I was confusing this with something else.  I wonder what I was confusing it with.

 
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mactjaap

Well-known member
Hmmmm. If I’m not wrong.....

Such a device is not just a LocalTalk bridge but acts as a network card. So if you have used the installer you can put it on ethernet (alternate) and use it as a network card. Then you can also use it for TCP/IP. 

 

Maccess

Well-known member
Hi, I have several of these and have successfully used them with various classic Macs. It is a SERIAL to Ethernet Adaptor, like modern USB to Ethernet Adaptors. It runs at around 900kbps (if the serial port supports high-speed mode, 030 Macs do). I've used it with PB Duos, Powerbooks, Classic I/II, SE/30, IIsi and LCs with filled PDS slot. It's like a SCSI to EN adaptor that connects to the serial port, advantage being that it doesn't interfere with disk accesses, but runs EN at half the speed of SCSI-EN, which in turn is half the speed of an onboard or Nubus EN.

The power adaptor is 10-12V positive center pin. (I use HP portable printer adaptors 11v with the polarity switched as HP uses negative center pin)

With the driver installed it appears as a link option in the Appletalk and TCP/IP. Note that it does not use localtalk, and local talk must be switched off in the port you are using. As it is an EN adaptor it can pass any protocol that can run on Ethernet, unlike an Apple talk bridge (Etherprint, AsantePrint, etc).  May be made to work on OpenTransport....sometimes.

A caveat is that the built in 10-B-T port on any Dayna T models (including Etherprints) doesn't work with 10/100 autosensing hubs. Workaround is to use an AUI adaptor (as shown) or connect it to a 10-Base-t hub or Etherwave, then connect the other port to the 10/100 hub.

The Drivers may be found here:

https://vintageapple.org/macdrivers/network.shtml

Direct link

https://vintageapple.org/macdrivers/nic/DaynaPORT7.7.2.sea

1993 PR

https://www.cbronline.com/news/dayna_has_stopgap_ethernet_adaptors_for_apple_powerbook_duos/

 

Maccess

Well-known member
I am in the Philippines, and have lots of these old Mac networking gear, so if you are in country and need some old networking stuff, send me a message here

 
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