You know, somebody should........

[DarthNvader]

There is zero supply of G4 Zif CPU's for sale, yet there seems to be a good cheap supply of G3 Zif 750's and BGA 7410's.

@LightBulbFun @herd

One of you guys should look into reworking these for us ZIF folks.

 

[DarthNvader]

There is a Sonnet 7410 500MHz Zif on eBay now( not mine ).

Sonnet Encore ZIF G4 Processor Upgrade Card 500/1M for G3/G4 Macintosh | eBay

The Sonnet Encore/ZIF can make your G3 or G4 Power Macintosh run faster than you thought possible. Sold as is. Macintosh Server G4 (PCI Graphics). Power Macintosh G3 All-in-one. Power Macintosh G3 Blue & White.

www.ebay.com

Let's see what it sells for, tho it maybe me who buys it.

 

[ArbysTPossum]

There is a Sonnet 7410 500MHz Zif on eBay now( not mine ).

Sonnet Encore ZIF G4 Processor Upgrade Card 500/1M for G3/G4 Macintosh | eBay

The Sonnet Encore/ZIF can make your G3 or G4 Power Macintosh run faster than you thought possible. Sold as is. Macintosh Server G4 (PCI Graphics). Power Macintosh G3 All-in-one. Power Macintosh G3 Blue & White.

www.ebay.com

Let's see what it sells for, tho it maybe me who buys it.

I have one of these in a beige G3, it's really good. Set the jumpers appropriately, and it can really fly.

 

[DarthNvader]

I have one of these in a beige G3, it's really good. Set the jumpers appropriately, and it can really fly.

7410 normally overclock well, I bet I could get 600MHz out of one in my Beige.

 

[Powerbase]

7410 normally overclock well, I bet I could get 600MHz out of one in my Beige.

I think the higher (500 or 600MHz) clocked ones Daystar sold were 7410s. I think they might have been overclocked ones at that (in some article from back in the day I remember reading).

 

[DarthNvader]

I think the higher (500 or 600MHz) clocked ones Daystar sold were 7410s. I think they might have been overclocked ones at that (in some article from back in the day I remember reading).

Yes, I remember reading to too, the 600MHz were OCed 500's.

it's kind of dishonest if you don't tell people before they buy because they maybe thinking a 600MHz part is going to have some headroom.

A Quick Look at the data sheet shows 533Mhz was the max production clock, so likely the 600's were that.

 

[Unknown_K]

The only OEM machine with a G4 ZIFF was the Yikes PCI G4 tower (350/400Mhz), so I would not expect there to be massive quantities of G4 ZIFFs around.

Since Beige G3's were PCI graphics only I would think a faster G3 would be better than a G4 anyway.

 

[DarthNvader]

The only OEM machine with a G4 ZIFF was the Yikes PCI G4 tower (350/400Mhz), so I would not expect there to be massive quantities of G4 ZIFFs around.

Since Beige G3's were PCI graphics only I would think a faster G3 would be better than a G4 anyway.

It's just that altivec speeds up the memory quite a bit. Ask @herd what the memory speeds are like with a 400MHz G4 vs a 1.+GHz G3.

A 600MHz 7410 would smash any G3 alive if we are talking memory throughput.

The Yike and B&W have 64bit 33MHz PCI and 66Mhz 32bit PCI. feeding 266MB/s PCI needs memory throughput.

I have a Yike Lobo waiting on a 500MHz+ 7410, then we will have some real would numbers with some exotic graphics cards on the 66MHz slot...

 

[Unknown_K]

Yikes and B&W are the same board with ADB plug and chip removed and a different firmware. I have a B&W I upgraded with a G4 ZIFF ages ago.

Very few cards take advantage of the 66mhz PCI slot, and none are great for later versions of OSX people seem to like installing.

Beige G3's are stuck at 66Mhz (ok some might have 83) and that hobbles the G4 quite a bit. The faster the FSB the faster the memory bus.

 

[Powerbase]

It's just that altivec speeds up the memory quite a bit. Ask @herd what the memory speeds are like with a 400MHz G4 vs a 1.+GHz G3.

A 600MHz 7410 would smash any G3 alive if we are talking memory throughput.

The Yike and B&W have 64bit 33MHz PCI and 66Mhz 32bit PCI. feeding 266MB/s PCI needs memory throughput.

I have a Yike Lobo waiting on a 500MHz+ 7410, then we will have some real would numbers with some exotic graphics cards on the 66MHz slot...

I found the old head to head Xlr8yourmac had between Sonnets 1GHz G4s and the 1.1GHz G3s, and the 600MHz (without the downclocked bus) had twice the memory performance of the G3s. The downclocked bus of the higher G4s effectively halved their memory performance to basically what the G3s were getting.

You'll have to go to the waybackamachine to find it, as they scrubbed it from their site some time ago.

 

[DarthNvader]

I found the old head to head Xlr8yourmac had between Sonnets 1GHz G4s and the 1.1GHz G3s, and the 600MHz (without the downclocked bus) had twice the memory performance of the G3s. The downclocked bus of the higher G4s effectively halved their memory performance to basically what the G3s were getting.

You'll have to go to the waybackamachine to find it, as they scrubbed it from their site some time ago.

Thanks, Nate Dog out did himself there, the 550MHz G4 did really well, offering more bang for buck.

Powerlogix's G3 1.1GHz vs Sonnet G4/1GHz ZIF CPU Upgrade Review/Comparisions

Accelerate Your Mac's Review of Powerlogix's G3 1.1GHz ZIF CPU Upgrade vs other upgrades

web.archive.org

 

[DarthNvader]

Yikes and B&W are the same board with ADB plug and chip removed and a different firmware. I have a B&W I upgraded with a G4 ZIFF ages ago.

Very few cards take advantage of the 66mhz PCI slot, and none are great for later versions of OSX people seem to like installing.

Beige G3's are stuck at 66Mhz (ok some might have 83) and that hobbles the G4 quite a bit. The faster the FSB the faster the memory bus.

Well @LightBulbFun put a 100MHz rated XPC106 in his Beige, tho we are still waiting for him to push it.

Some of us have X1950XT's and 7800GT's with PCI to PCI-E bridges that will run at 66MHz, we'll see what we see when we see it.

 

[Unknown_K]

You will see shit performance assuming they even work.

 

[DarthNvader]

I think the higher (500 or 600MHz) clocked ones Daystar sold were 7410s. I think they might have been overclocked ones at that (in some article from back in the day I remember reading).

The Sonnet chip for sale right now on eBay is RX450LE and Sonnet sold it as 500MHz, as you can see from the sticker.

So Sonnet too was engaging in a deceptive business practice, they could have just as easy bought a 500MHz rated mpc7410, but the profits would have not been the same.

People think they'll have some overhead and maybe able to flex the chip out some on OCing it, but no, Sonnet already did that, and shitted you out of your money.

 

[LightBulbFun]

There is zero supply of G4 Zif CPU's for sale, yet there seems to be a good cheap supply of G3 Zif 750's and BGA 7410's.

@LightBulbFun @herd

One of you guys should look into reworking these for us ZIF folks.

the problem with using existing G3 ZIF's is they have 3.3V L2 cache so you can only swap 7400's onto them, 7410's sadly dropped support for 3.3V cache

what would be neat is if someone came up with a modern ZIF design, I dont think it would be too much work in the grand scheme of things for someone to clone a Apple/PowerLogix/Daystar/Sonnet G4 ZIF card

I would probably recommend someone trying to do this, start out with one of the non sonnet ones for simplicity sake (since the sonnet ones have a CPLD onboard that does automatic bus speed detection and multiplier setting)

 

[DarthNvader]

the problem with using existing G3 ZIF's is they have 3.3V L2 cache so you can only swap 7400's onto them, 7410's sadly dropped support for 3.3V cache

what would be neat is if someone came up with a modern ZIF design, I dont think it would be too much work in the grand scheme of things for someone to clone a Apple/PowerLogix/Daystar/Sonnet G4 ZIF card

I would probably recommend someone trying to do this, start out with one of the non sonnet ones for simplicity sake (since the sonnet ones have a CPLD onboard that does automatic bus speed detection and multiplier setting)

So all the Apple OEM ZIF's (750) (7400) are feed 3.3v to the L2 cache?

 

[DarthNvader]

I don't know, the 333Mhz and beyond Apple OEM G3 ZIF CPU's likely use the MPC750P CPU, the low power version. There was an addendum to the MPC750 data sheet that lists the recommend L2 Bus interface voltage of 2.5v for the 750P CPU's.

Has anyone ever measured the voltage of the L2 on the 333MHz/+ ZIF cards?

Whoever made the ZIF cards may have used 3.3v+-.5v or may have used 2.5v.

Of course that's irrelevant if 2.5v is still too much for the MPC7410 L2 Bus interface voltage?

The MPC7410 L2 Bus interface voltage is typically 1.8V or 2.5V, depending on the configuration selected through internal settings on the chip; it is not fixed at 3.3V and can be chosen to suit the specific L2 cache technology being used.

Key points about the MPC7410 L2 Bus interface voltage:

• Selectable:
  The voltage level for the L2 bus can be selected using internal configuration pins, allowing for flexibility based on the connected L2 cache requirements.
  
  
• Low Voltage Options:
  The primary options for the L2 bus voltage are 1.8V and 2.5V, which are commonly used for low-power SRAM technologies.
  
  
• Check Datasheet:
  Always consult the official MPC7410 datasheet for the most accurate information regarding voltage selection and pin configurations related to the L2 bus interface.

 

[DarthNvader]

I mean I could be wrong, but it looks like the Apple OEM 300/+MHz G3 ZIFs use KM736V689A and that is 2.5v, no?

The 400Mhz G3 ZIF seems to use mcm69p737tq3.0 and that is 3.3v.

 

[DarthNvader]

I mean I could be wrong, but it looks like the Apple OEM 300/+MHz G3 ZIFs use KM736V689A and that is 2.5v, no?

Seems to me somebody already figured this out, as the 3.3v L2 Memory G3 ZIFs seem to sell for $20-25, even the 400MHz rated CPU's, the the ones with SEC L2 RAM sell for $55-$100.

The Sonnet 500MHz G4( 7410 ) ZIF sold for $128.50, so the $30-$100 for a compatible ZIF card makes margins awful slim for guys and gals who can do the rework to a 7410.

 

[ArbysTPossum]

Without quoting anything in particular, I have an XLR8 G4, it's clocked in at 500Mhz, I put a fan on it because it makes an uncomfortable amount of heat in a beige G3 tower case. I also have the BUS speed up to 83Mhz, which seems to matter more than increasing the CPU clock any higher. I'll try a higher PCI clock, but I'm not sure 3Mhz more is going to increase video performance enough to matter.