Tokamac build and programming XC1736 chips

[Phipli]

If I remember, the datasheet for the... AMD clones?? gives more details regarding the programming algorithm doesn't it? I'd have to go back and look. How bad would it be to make a cheap modern one? What are the programming voltages? Nothing that couldn't be overcome with a MOSFET and a 12 or 24V supply? Or a voltage boost circuit?

 

[Jockelill]

The Galep programmer can also do the XC1736, Galep-5 is still in production, but pricey. From time to time Galep-III and IV shows up at Ebay and Kleinanzeigen, with some patience you can find one for less than 100€, but they are still pricey, and you need a computer with parallell port unless you're getting the Galep-5.

 

[DrGonzo]

Ok, glutton for punishment that I am, I'm resurrecting this old thread as I spent some more time working on my Tokamac builds. I managed to get a couple of XC1736EPC chips loaded up with the U15 image (having had no luck with the XC1736DPC) and my LCII now boots up with it plugged in. However... when I boot with any of the 4 or 5 different versions of the Presto040 extension (from Sonnet, Mac Repository, etc..) in the Extensions folder, the system locks up as it starts to load. If I remove it or hold shift, it then boots. I did go in and turn on 32-bit addressing as was suggested in some of the documentation. I also noted that the extension locks up in the same place whether the board is installed or not. I thought I'd read that it should just 'X' out if no board was found?

Does anyone who has one of these working in an LCII have a known good software set they could share, or does any of these sound familiar?

Thanks all!
~Dr. G

 

[JC8080]

I have a Sonnet Presto LC in my Color Classic, I believe it is the same card. I found that the Presto driver v3.1 was the only one that worked, I think I got it from this Macintosh Garden page.

Here's a link to a quick post I did on my CC.

 

[DrGonzo]

Hmm... will have to dig out my CC from the pile and see if it behaves any differently. By file size, it looks like that is one I tried, but worth a shot on the CC as well. Good to know it should be a solid driver then.

In running benchmarks, do you recall having the card out and whether it booted with the extension still in the Extensions folder? Or did it hang like I'm seeing on the LCII during boot with no card. If it booted without the card then I'm suspect of my XC1736EPC chip and/or burn.

Thanks much!
~Dr. G

 

[JC8080]

Hmm... will have to dig out my CC from the pile and see if it behaves any differently. By file size, it looks like that is one I tried, but worth a shot on the CC as well. Good to know it should be a solid driver then.

In running benchmarks, do you recall having the card out and whether it booted with the extension still in the Extensions folder? Or did it hang like I'm seeing on the LCII during boot with no card. If it booted without the card then I'm suspect of my XC1736EPC chip and/or burn.

Thanks much!
~Dr. G

I do not, but I can check. You are saying to leave the driver, remove the card, and see what happens on boot?

 

[DrGonzo]

Yeah, but don't want you pulling apart the machine to test when I can try first on my CC too. Just not sure what the behavior should be since it locks my LCII both with and without the card in. I'll try tonight and see if things change on another Mac.

 

[JC8080]

I had my CC sitting out, it was no trouble to test. I removed the accelerator, and confirmed I can successfully boot without the accelerator, with the Presto v3.1 driver. The extension icon has a red X through it at boot, but the system boots fine.

 

[DrGonzo]

Thanks for checking, and that's actually good news IMO. That makes me think it's more likely the LCII having some issue and maybe my Tokamacs are good after all. I realized I think my CC is in storage so may be this weekend before I can confirm. There's hope though. I'll report back once I know for sure. Thanks again!

 

[DrGonzo]

Well, looks like I'm back to the drawing board. I got another LCII to boot with the Presto extension without the card (not sure what's up with the other one), but still freezes with either Tokamac and my flashed XC1736EPC.

Work continues...

~Dr. G

 

[JC8080]

Did you make any progress?

 

[Jockelill]

I happen to have both the original and 3 copies that I have built myself. Bolle borrowed my original card and succesfully cloned it, however I have unfortunately not been able to build a working clone myself. I actually have the exact same issue as @DrGonzo has, it boots without extensions but hangs when trying to load it and that is because that is actually when the whole card is being initialized. I have chatted quite a bit with Bolle about my issues, but it seems like getting a correct, compatible and working XC3030 can be very difficult, I have tried with 5 different ones and they all behave the same. It could also be related to one of the logic chips not being correct/too slow spec. I was planning on desoldering chips from my original board as a next step, but haven't gotten that far. Where did you get the XC3030s? from TVsat or? They where definitely troublesome and also some from eBay are chinese non working fakes...

 

[DrGonzo]

I got a 5 count on eBay from China so certainly possible they're fake. Not sure I'd have any way to tell, but if a reputable seller comes up, I'd certainly throw in a few bucks to rule them out. I haven't made much progress as other projects have been monopolizing my time over the last couple months. If there's anything I can help test I'd be happy to though. I did pick up another small batch of the XC1736DPC chips I'd been meaning to see about getting programmed, but after my EPC was successful (I think) I'm no longer sure they're the issue. On that note, when programming the 1736, did it successfully verify after programming? Mine did not, but wasn't sure if that was normal behavior for the Xilinx chips? The SuperPro 280U software is kind of wonky compared to the Xgpro for my TL866+.

 

[dalek]

These are OTP (one time programmable) right? I would expect anything coming from eBay to be reclaimed and thus unable to be reprogrammed.

The ATMEL equivalents are reprogrammable but they have a few configuration bits that need to be set to get the same reset behaviour.

 

[zigzagjoe]

Here is an Arduino based programmer for the Atmel chips. Currently it is set to program an AT17C65 for Carrera, but you should be able to adapt it to other cases easily enough.

GitHub - ZigZagJoe/AT17C65-Arduino-Programmer: Programming AT17C65 with Arduino platform

Programming AT17C65 with Arduino platform. Contribute to ZigZagJoe/AT17C65-Arduino-Programmer development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

Also some relevant documents and the original Atmel implementation.

 

[DrGonzo]

These are OTP (one time programmable) right? I would expect anything coming from eBay to be reclaimed and thus unable to be reprogrammed.

The ATMEL equivalents are reprogrammable but they have a few configuration bits that need to be set to get the same reset behaviour.

The XC1736(D/E) chips are supposedly NOS so 'should' be blanks. The 2x EPC chips seemed to program ok, but it didn't seem to like the DPC variety, though it should. I did seem to think they were blank though, so not sure what's up with all that. Just not the best programmer/software is my take.

 

[chiptripper]

I have a Bolle Presto LC from @joshc, he built it perfectly but unfortunately it has the same issue described above.

The PROM is an Atmel programmed by Bolle, so seems unlikely to be the problem. The XC3030 is probably at issue. It’s a legitimate part (TVsat), but doesn’t like being on a Presto.

These chips are very hard to source. The pinout for the XC3042 is essentially identical, just seems to have more gates. Wondering if it would make a suitable substitute?

Also many close relatives in this family (XC3030a, XC3130, etc). Haven’t dug into spec sheets yet, will do so when I find time. It would be nice to find a suitable alternative as it would make Presto builds more viable.

 

[zigzagjoe]

I have a Bolle Presto LC from @joshc, he built it perfectly but unfortunately it has the same issue described above.

The PROM is an Atmel programmed by Bolle, so seems unlikely to be the problem. The XC3030 is probably at issue. It’s a legitimate part (TVsat), but doesn’t like being on a Presto.

These chips are very hard to source. The pinout for the XC3042 is essentially identical, just seems to have more gates. Wondering if it would make a suitable substitute?

Also many close relatives in this family (XC3030a, XC3130, etc). Haven’t dug into spec sheets yet, will do so when I find time. It would be nice to find a suitable alternative as it would make Presto builds more viable.

You will not be able to use a bigger FPGA with the XC3x30 bitstream, a larger FPGA will be incompletely configured and will not transition into the operational state and/or will be incorrectly configured.

However, XC3130 (and XC3030A/XC3130A) are bitstream & pinout compatible with XC3030; they're a superset of the XC3030 with optimized for speed or additional features. So one of those may work too. For additional reading, here's a datasheet from when I was researching this for carrera stuff.

But yeah, sourcing obsolete parts for these things is just a bit of a pain

 

[jibsaramnim]

I recently got a card made by Bolle himself and have been trying to get it to work with my Color Classic, but to no avail. I was kindly pointed to this thread from one that I have started the other day. I was wondering if any of you that had previously run into the issue of a system refusing to boot with the card and drivers installed had found a way to make it work?

 

[chiptripper]

You will not be able to use a bigger FPGA with the XC3x30 bitstream, a larger FPGA will be incompletely configured and will not transition into the operational state and/or will be incorrectly configured.

However, XC3130 (and XC3030A/XC3130A) are bitstream & pinout compatible with XC3030; they're a superset of the XC3030 with optimized for speed or additional features. So one of those may work too. For additional reading, here's a datasheet from when I was researching this for carrera stuff.

But yeah, sourcing obsolete parts for these things is just a bit of a pain

Ok, so after poring over data sheets and feeling reasonably confident, I sourced a legit (NOS) 100-pin XC3030A, installed it, and… it works.

Well, kinda. It works perfectly on an LC II with the Presto 2.0.1 driver extension and Virtual Enabler in the System folder.

It does NOT, however, work on my Color Classic, not in any configuration I tried.

Regardless, it’s nice to know these things will seemingly work with a XC3030A.

(cc @joshc)