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WGS 9150: Crescendo + HPV possible?

BadGoldEagle

Well-known member
Hi there, 

I'm just wondering if this is possible at all. I know there's an adapter for the 7100/8100 but there's no mention whether it works or not in the 9150. 

There seems to be some logic on the ribbon cable, so making a replica would be damn near impossible. 

Any ideas? 

 

Bolle

Well-known member
There seems to be some logic on the ribbon cable, so making a replica would be damn near impossible. 


It should work just fine in the 9150. I think I do have a spare ribbon somewhere that had issues.

There's a single GAL and a clock buffer on there. I can see if I can get you the contents of that GAL and check how it's wired up.

Most signals look like they are connected 1 to 1.

IMG_5349.jpg

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Hi there, 

I'm just wondering if this is possible at all. I know there's an adapter for the 7100/8100 but there's no mention whether it works or not in the 9150.


There should be no reason the adapter kits for Sonnet or NewerTech would not work in the 9150. However both tie up a NuBus Slot, which might not be so in the larger case of the 9150. Even if it's necessary to use such an adaptation that's not nearly the problem with the 7100/8100.

There seems to be some logic on the ribbon cable, so making a replica would be damn near impossible. 

Any ideas? 


Have you already got the G3 card? If you have the Crescendo is it the low profile compatible with the 6100 or the taller version? Check that it has the PDS passthru slot for that cable. IIRC some didn't. If you haven't sourced it as yet, make sure of what you're getting in terms of passthru and the lower 6100 compatible version may be far more flexible for your needs.

On the ideas front, PCI extender cables, risers or some such could be workable. The wider section is a perfect fit as is for the wider section and a second can be cut down to fit the narrow section.

Simple-PCI-Extension-Cable-00.JPG

What's the physical arrangement in terms of what plugs in where next to the PDS Slot? Very interesting machine, the only PPC Mac with four NuBus slots? Love the relocated FDD. The headroom above the NuBus slots is reminiscent of my Radius 81/110's big metal can. That could turn out to be very handy in solving your problem.

WGS9150-Logic-Board-00.JPG

I recognize the 8 SIMM slots on the left above, but what are those two (DIMM?) slots above the HPV PDS? What the heck is that connector in between a row of Power jacks for add'l HDDs?

WGS9150-Logic-Board-01.JPG

IIRC my Low Profile Crescendo (AWOL ATM) PDS Passthru Slot is located above the heatsink on the accelerator, pointing straight up over that mess. Can you take some pictures detailing that section as above? Thinking here is that a backset angle adapter might just hold the card vertically within that Radius-like cubic overhead the NuBus and PDS slots? What's the available space between the Crescendo's slot and HDDs that might interfere?

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The setback would need to be much steeper than I can illustrate in ASCII to clear the now internal DA-15 connection. The setback of the PCB traces would need to be a bit more than the NewerTech cable above for scootch room. The "vertical" offset of the adapter's slot would need to be short enough to clear any obstruction from too tall components in the area in question. The Power Supply position blocks such an installation in my Radius 81/110, but there is plenty of vertical clearance for such a configuration.

You can check your machine by installing the Crescendo and setting the HPV card on its RA passthru slot. If it then fits within available overhead you're good to go with a very simple up-angle extender, assuming there's no board mounted schiznit in the way.

@Bolle the cable of course needs to be 1:1 and I'm very interested in what you find out about the which signals are running in and out of that PCB's logic? The cable may not necessarily need the logic. I have several NewerTech G3 cards as above with the short, 50+mm hardwired cable. It's a weak point in the design that's somewhat prone to mechanical failure, not electrically as it seems to me. The question about using PCI extenders would be electrical in nature.

 
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jeremywork

Well-known member
I recognize the 8 SIMM slots on the left above, but what are those two (DIMM?) slots above the HPV PDS? What the heck is that connector in between a row of Power jacks for add'l HDDs?
Those two slots are for the ROM and cache, similar to the other x100s. The debug port shown on this prototype appears on the schematic too it seems. 
uldz542tkm211.jpg


 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Aha, thanks! I was working off the Service Source which says ROM is a SIMM. I can see those two DIMMs up under the PSU of my 81/110, but didn't remember what they were.

So that's the Main Power Connector location? Annoying, but it might not interfere with my notion for using an up-angle riser configuration. How far down can the wires be bent. ROM DIMM needs to stay, but with a G3 in there the lower Cache DIMM would be unnecessary, no? That's all for bending the PSU connection by a considerable amount.

edit: that'd be how far up toward the DIMM slots and closer to the Logic Board surface can the power loom be bent out of the way?

 
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jeremywork

Well-known member
Yeah, it's the same power connector location from Quadras 900 and 950, might even use the same supply. (Still hope to find a 9150)

With the supply installed there's not much headroom above the PDS slot, so I'd guess you will want the HPV card 90° out and vertically mounted, as we had decided I'd need to do for my 8100.

Where things differ is the motherboard is inverted in design to the 7100/8100 boards, so the G3 will be installed upside down in the 9150, and thus the HPV connector will be further away (or closer?) to where it needs to be.

Cache DIMM would be unnecessary, no?


Yes, Sonnet suggests removing it when the G3 is installed, so this is out of the way. I don't recall whether these had ROMs on SIMMs or not though...

 
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Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
With the supply installed there's not much headroom above the PDS slot, so I'd guess you will want the HPV card 90° out and vertically mounted, as we had decided I'd need to do for my 8100.
Was that your thread I was wondering about? Got a link, there may be good info there for this adaptation.

Where things differ is the motherboard is inverted in design to the 7100/8100 boards, so the G3 will be installed upside down in the 9150, and thus the HPV connector will be further away (or closer?) to where it needs to be.


That's not clear to me at all? The component side/heatsink of the accelerator should be pointing upward toward the PSU.

This diagram makes me think there might be enough room given PDS CoverPlate and Power Connector locations?

WGS9150-Backside-00.JPG

Worse comes to worse, the offset board above and another to point the HPV acroww the top of the NuBus cards ought to do the trick. "PCB pair length" would be shorter than the Sonnet cable, one extra connection to consider however.

 

jeremywork

Well-known member
Got a link, there may be good info there for this adaptation.

Here we are...

my point about the two board designs being inverted is that the 8100 used a motherboard at right / components facing left orientation, and the 9150 is opposite.

Look at the juxtaposition of the nearest Nubus slot to the [long]|[short] of the PDS connector. The 8100 would need to be upside down with Nubus on top to match the 9150's orientation.

s-l1600.jpg
uldz542tkm211.jpg


 
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Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Heh,! I was just about to reply with the most simple solution of all for the WGS9150: avoid Sonnet and embrace NewerTech:

HPV-NewerTech-combo-for-WGS9150-00.JPG

That's my Big Metal Can from the folks at Radius. WGS9150 has a workable amount of headspace overtop the NuBus Cards that's lacking in the 8100. Note the setback for connecting the DA-15 internally. Such is required for the  Swap a Video Card backplane cover plate for the blank Accelerator plate and feed HPV video output there with a longer ribbon cable setup than the one that's supplied by NewerTech.

@jeremywork Thanks for linking to that other thread, there's a much better cutaway view of my 8100 mockup for your HPV adaptation project:

View attachment 30500

@BadGoldEagle Your WGS9150 likely has enough room overtop the NuBus Cards to allow installation of the NewerTech/HPV combo as above without losing one of your generous allotment of four NuBus slots. In my Radius 81/110, the Crescendo HPV adapter cable is long enough to allow me to lay the HPV card down on the bottom of the case.

There may be two problems there for you. First, the fourth slot might overreach the length of the Sonnet cable for that config? Second, there might not be enough cubic between the lowest NuBus Card and the bottom of the case to allow for mounting HPV on the bottom of the case anyway.  In either case you may as well just give up that fourth NuBus Slot for a full-on adapter installation.

For now, PCI extenders might work, but cable length for that gives me the willies. Likely fine for tipping the overly simple whisper card to the left for a Beige G3 DT 2U conversion, which is why it was handy for a quick photo shoot. But I'm not so sure about running full-on Video over PDS on those cables, Besides who really needs sound out of a G3 rackmount anyway? :lol:   If the NewerTech approach is not your thing (I prefer Sonnet myself) measure up the space available between the HPV PDS slot and the PSU so we can start from there.

@jeremywork The shorter section of the PDS connector must always be located at the rear of the case for HPV or the all but useless A/V card connectors to point out the backplane. :approve:

 
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jeremywork

Well-known member
@jeremywork The shorter section of the PDS connector must always be located at the rear of the case for HPV or the all but useless A/V card connectors to point out the backplane. :rolleyes:
Right, and because of this the entire assembly you have your finger stabilizing in the photo will be upside down in the 9150, with the HPV card sticking straight up. You'd then need enough extra cable length to safely fold it 180°. If there's enough, then no problem!

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Interesting, in that case the component sides of the NuBus cards would also be face down in the box? :blink:

That likely means that mounting the HPV on the bottom of the case is out. Does the heatsink of a G3 card in the WGS9150 interfere with installing a card in the Nubus Slot next to it? In that case, you're losing the fourth slot and down to three anyway, which is not all that bad after all for an x1x0 series machine with G3/HPV. We're back to Sonnet Crescendo, my ASCII illustration and the possibility of mounting HPV parallel to the accelerator vertically, headroom allowing?

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That hurt a bit, but rotated 180 degrees and mirrored on the vertical axis seems to match what you're telling me? This mounts the HPV card parallel to the Accelerator and set back from the backplane. It would be overtop the adjacent NuBus slot with its backplane plate cover available for cabling up a DA-15 connection or maybe with room an internally mounted VGA converter?

My head hurts now, but it seems as though none of the standard HPV/G3 solutions would work out all that well in the WGS9150 after all? :mellow:

 
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jeremywork

Well-known member
Interesting, in that case the component sides of the NuBus cards would also be face down in the box? :blink:
Yep, just like a Quadra 9x0 (not mine, just a demo pic)

apple_quadra_950___internal_view_by_redfalcon696_d8f3ju4-fullview.jpg


All I can do is speculate on whether the crescendo's heatsink would interfere, but I suspect it won't. Even the highest point of the VRM cooler seems within reason of a single slot size.

My head hurts now, but it seems as though none of the standard HPV/G3 solutions would work out all that well in the WGS9150 after all? :mellow:
Without a unit to test with, I'd still call it 50/50 feasible with the stock cabling. It won't reach the second slot away from the crescendo as on the 7100/8100, but it may still reach the first slot looped over itself. The case has plenty of breezeway between the Nubus slots and the case door, though the factory mechanism for holding Nubus cards in is mounted to the case door obstructing it, so something else would need to go in its place to create that cavity and keep the nubus cards secure.

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
I finally wrapped my head around it. It's the same setup as the 6100 if you picture its logic board as a NuBus backplane. The Power Plug, DIMM slots and the rest of the 9150 logic board would be hanging off the left of the 6100 PDS outside the case. No need for the cable, the Up Angle adapter card in my last post will undoubtedly block the adjacent NuBus slot, but it's hella better than trying to build a cable. The three slots that remain available match the x100 series config. and much better than losing one of those three to a standard adapter kit.

The heatsink poses a couple of problems, interference physically and thermally, so a fan should be integrated in the adaptation. I'm not worried about structural problems, bolting the assembly up to the HPV backplane takes care of stress when coupled with nylon standoffs for the logic board.

@BadGoldEagle I'll knock together a cardboard prototype of your WGS9150 HPV Adapter and take some pics to clarify. Can you post a pic of your Crescendo in the meantime?

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
The case has plenty of breezeway between the Nubus slots and the case door, though the factory mechanism for holding Nubus cards in is mounted to the case door obstructing it, so something else would need to go in its place to create that cavity and keep the nubus cards secure.


I can't get to my Q950 to check, could someone please post a couple of pics of that assembly on the door?

 

jeremywork

Well-known member
I can't get to my Q950 to check, could someone please post a couple of pics of that assembly on the door?
Ugly, low-effort photo- but those five plastic blade things are modular, when installed they keep the Nubus cards from shimming out as you plug a cable in. They do dice up that cavity rather inconveniently though.

IMG_7832.jpg

 
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Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
They're removable, no? IIRC the addl. headroom allows for the installation of a standard, full height NuBus Card? IIRC Apple pushed something on the order of a 2/3 height spec. for desktop use, specifically for the Macintosh II. What height is the PDS server card for the Q950? I've seen pics of full height cards.

edit: LEM: The only difference between the Quadra 950 and the AWS 95 is the presence of the Apple Workgroup Server PDS Card in the AWS 95.

You caught me getting pics ready to post of the mockup, stay tuned. [:)]

 
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BadGoldEagle

Well-known member
Wow this thread blew up all of a sudden, thanks for your interest!

I have ZERO parts right now, no 9150, no Crescendo, no adapter, no HPV card. I was just wondering if this kind of setup was even possible. I have a big gap in my collection at the moment between the 950 and my G4 Quicksilver. The 9150+G3/HPV would be the ideal machine but I'm afraid it'll take years or even decades before I can piece it all together.

That said, we can certainly start making some mock ups and it's only a matter of time before those flex cables crumble away.

 
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