weird ibook problem

[bamdad]

hi everybody,

it's been a while since i showed up here. glad to see the forum's alive and well. sadly, i have to post about a problem again. i have this ibook g4 (1,02 ghz model), and it's driving me nuts. i can't even be sure about what kind of problem it has.

if i move the machine, the screen shuts blank, and there's no response from the os. caps lock, numlock etc. can be turned on, but there's no hd activity, and the if i turn the volume up/down to check, there's no response. it's dead. sometimes the only thing it takes to produce the error is moving my lap or putting it on the table, sometimes i have to turn it upside down to trigger it. the weirdest thing is that if i turn it off, wait a few seconds and turn it back on, it usually works again, even if i don't move it at all during the restart.

i thought it's a mechanical problem, some connector came loose or something like that, so i took it apart and.. it looks like nothing's wrong.

now i'm really stumped. it doesn't even seem to be affected by temperature, uptime, being on ac or battery, nothing. it seems as though it only bugs out when it feels like it.

can anybody make some sense of this? i'd be happy just by someone telling me this is a common internal issue, and it cannot be fixed. at the very least i wouldn't feel like i'm flat out haunted.

thanks,

bamdad

 

[H3NRY]

Some people say the iBook G4 has the "video chip coming loose from the PC board" issue. There is also a pin that comes unsoldered on a voltage regulator chip. The latter is fixable. In both cases, pushing on the chip is a temporary cure. A Google search will yield several good hits.

 

[PowerPup]

Some people say the iBook G4 has the "video chip coming loose from the PC board" issue. There is also a pin that comes unsoldered on a voltage regulator chip. The latter is fixable. In both cases, pushing on the chip is a temporary cure. A Google search will yield several good hits.

Ah yes. I've seen many of those affected iBooks and Ebay. I thought about getting one and try to fix it... But I was a little concern on some of the methods to fixing it.

http://geektechnique.org/projectlab/726/diy-obsolete-ibook-logic-board-repair

While the link above may be a little drastic solution. It gives you a basic idea of what might be needed, if that's the problem. (Let's hope not.)

Hope you can get the problem fixed.

 

[bamdad]

hahaha, thank you. i knew about this, even read the article, but - for some reason - thought only g3 ibooks are affected. well, i guess it's time to open her up again - this time for a hot ride. )

 

[iMac600]

Pin 28 on your Vreg chip has come loose from the logic board.

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/tips/iBookG4_vreg_repair/ibookG4_vreg_repair.html

You don't have to scrape the laminate from the logic board to repair it (if you were to solder the pin back down it would work fine) but I would advise doing so where possible. I repair these iBooks pretty frequently and to scrape the laminate back and solder to the copper below is a must if you ask me, otherwise the board flexing will only crack pin 28 again. That extended solder allows some room for flexing. The pins themselves are quite densely packed together and are around 0.8mm in width each, so the finer tip soldering iron you can use, the better. A magnifying glass is also recommended.

The symptoms of a broken Pin 28 on the Vreg chip is a seemingly random dropout of the system to a grey screen. The backlight of the LCD continues working but the video doesn't. The computer may respond to Caps Lock, etc but overall the system will be frozen. The issue can be compounded when the computer is moved or picked up because it causes the board to shift, and the pin loses contact. If you force shut down and restart the system, the computer will boot as normal but eventually the issue will reappear again. Sometimes, in severe cases, the computer will not reboot as normal and you will get absolutely nothing (no video, no keyboard, no HD activity, no chime) but the rear enclosure fan whirring at full speed.

From what i've found, the GPU isn't at fault as commonly on iBook G4's due to the relocation of the GPU chip on these models. The GPU is positioned just to the left of the RAM/AirPort slot below the keyboard as opposed to the left of the trackpad on the iBook G3s.

Pushing down on the chip with a shim may work, but it can't by any means be considered a permanent repair. The "shim fix" lasted about a week on both of my iBook G4s, but the solder repair is going on 3 or 4 months now without an issue.

For the sake of reference, most of the repairs i've seen are home repairs, but i'm also sure if you printed the above article out and took it to any electronics repairer, they could probably do the job. Bonus points if you already have the machine opened for them since that part is pretty tricky.

Good luck with it, heres hoping you can get it running smoothly again.

Cheers

- Michael

 

[bamdad]

thanks for the detailed reply. i'm not entirely sure what you meant by 'scraping the laminate off', though. i've never had a problem with a gray screen. it always consistently goes blank. sometimes, even after the boot chime. if so, there's sometimes hd activity, sometimes nothing. the fan never kicks in.

i was considering the 'burning method', but now i'm utterly confused. one thing is for sure: i'm not able to solder the chip back manually. i've seen the motherboard, and that task is way beyond me. even with extreme caution and a magnifying glass.

well, i guess i'll have to try anyway, and if i fail, i'll trade in my powerbook duo for a new mainboard..

---

edit: could someone please give me a pic or link about that voltage regulator chip? if i have to take it apart again, i might as well check on that, too. thanks in advance.

 

[iMac600]

thanks for the detailed reply. i'm not entirely sure what you meant by 'scraping the laminate off', though. i've never had a problem with a gray screen. it always consistently goes blank. sometimes, even after the boot chime. if so, there's sometimes hd activity, sometimes nothing. the fan never kicks in.

In the link I posted, they take the green stuff off the top of the board to expose the shiny copper track below. That's "scraping the laminate off". About the grey screen, I apologise, a blank screen is what I meant. It just happens that when the backlight shines onto the blank screen it looks a bit greyish.

i was considering the 'burning method', but now i'm utterly confused. one thing is for sure: i'm not able to solder the chip back manually. i've seen the motherboard, and that task is way beyond me. even with extreme caution and a magnifying glass.

You could still give the burning method a shot, although the burning method shown in the link posted earlier is very different on an iBook G4 than it is on the G3, and the graphics chip is a lot harder to get to. You basically need to take the entire computer apart to get at it. On top of that I doubt that it would be the cause of the problem, considering the Vreg chip failure is the most common issue on these machines and it does sound like this is the problem in your case.

Another alternative of course is a new mainboard, and that could probably get the machine over the line for a few years.

edit: could someone please give me a pic or link about that voltage regulator chip? if i have to take it apart again, i might as well check on that, too. thanks in advance.

The voltage regulator/vreg chip is the one that needs to be soldered back down, as I posted a link to earlier.

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/tips/iBookG4_vreg_repair/ibookG4_vreg_repair.html

If you don't think you'll be able to take the solder repair path, there is a possibility you could shim the chip. Not the most elegant of solutions and not always the most reliable either, but if you want to keep it in mind as an option...

http://www.coreyarnold.org/ibook/

...then there's all the info you need to know about it. If that "shim fix" doesn't work though, the solder repair is the only other option short of replacing the entire board.

 

[bamdad]

i took it apart and did a test. if i press down on the mainboard, where the main display connector is (left of the area between the keyboard and the trackpad) it works well. if i let go - blank screen. so this has to do with the video chip. i'm assuming that since in the burning 'tutorial' the author has the video ship on the back of the motherboard, i'll have to apply the heat on the top side, where my cip is. is this correct?

---

edit: we posted almost at the same time, sorry about that. this is great, now i'm starting to get the picture. i'll check on the ibook tomorrow morning, and report back. i can't thank you enough for your tremendous help. i might be able to do this myself.

 

[bamdad]

update: i tried to manually apply pressure (like shimming) to the chip while turning on the machine, but it had no effect: nothing on the screen, but the computer was booting nicely (i coud hear the hard drive working and even the silent hissing sound when the sound came on (typically this is somewhere at the end of the boot sequence).

i'm more and more convinced that this has nothing to do with the vreg chip. i've examined it with a magnifying glass, and the soldering seems to be perfectly intact. i'll try to make a picture if you're interested, maybe you can spot something i missed.

next, i'll try pressing down on the video card itself.

 

[bamdad]

update 2: pressing down on the heatsink did the job. as soon as i let go, the screen went blank. this leaves me with two questions:

1: did i actually press the gpu against the mainboard, thus connecting something that's loose, or did the motherboard sink deeper into the tablecloth, thus separating itself from the chip? the former is, of course, much more likely.

2: why is it that sometimes there's no hd activity on powerup, and if this happens when booted, then why can't i hear the sound up/down feedback sound? i'm guessing sometimes the machine completely freezes because of an incomplete connection.

anyway, i'm sure now that this has something to do with the gpu. i have to get some sleep, but i'll try it again in the morning.

this is really exciting in a strange kind of way.

 

[iMac600]

I'm going to have to let one of our other forum members take over from here, unless I can dig up more information. Although the symptoms do appear to match that of a Vreg chip fault, it does seem possible that the GPU could be at fault. If you push down on the heatsink assembly and it solves the issue, this would also say the GPU could be the problem. Maybe it's overheated and fractured the solder underneath, who knows. The fact you also said it appeared to be booting would be consistent with the GPU, a Vreg chip fault wouldn't start the machine at all.

If you do want to bake the GPU and see if it helps, I may be able to assist there... i've done some GPU reflow work on these iBooks as well. Ultimately you will need to remove the lower case and EM shield, then the top case, keyboard, the steel plate below the keyboard, the heatsink and fan assembly and possibly the LCD too. basically break the machine down until you can get clear access to the GPU, then just use the burning method as described above. I used a heat gun, but it took a lot more precision timing with the heat gun than the tea light method.

To answer your questions though:

1. It does seem more likely you pressed the GPU against the mainboard, especially if you pushed down on the heatsink. Since there's very little on the other side of the board from that, or so I can see, the GPU would have been the most likely component to "reseat".

2. The machine could kernel panic because of hardware faults, as in an incomplete connection with the GPU, especially if it's an intermittent connection in which sometimes it'll appear to boot, and others it may not.

Hopefully we should get some input from the other forum members soon as well, i'm getting pretty tired myself as I type this so who knows when i'll be back... i'll try to keep posted on the thread though and offer what I know.

 

[bamdad]

If you do want to bake the GPU and see if it helps, I may be able to assist there... i've done some GPU reflow work on these iBooks as well. Ultimately you will need to remove the lower case and EM shield, then the top case, keyboard, the steel plate below the keyboard, the heatsink and fan assembly and possibly the LCD too. basically break the machine down until you can get clear access to the GPU, then just use the burning method as described above. I used a heat gun, but it took a lot more precision timing with the heat gun than the tea light method.

then burning it shall be. the machine is broken down to bits, i have nice, clean access to the gpu. it's hard to miss, since it has a nice 'ati' logo on top. i'm assuming that i have to place the candle light on the top as opposed to the bottom seen in the burning 'tutorial'. the g4 ibooks have the gpu on the upper side of the mainboard, and it wouldn't make much sense to start heating the board itself on the bottom: the gpu might come even looser. please correct me if i'm wrong.

Hopefully we should get some input from the other forum members soon as well, i'm getting pretty tired myself as I type this so who knows when i'll be back... i'll try to keep posted on the thread though and offer what I know.

thanks, you've helped me a gread deal so far, and i have all the info i can get, now it's up to me to do the 'dirty work'. i'll do the burning after breakfast, and post my results. maybe some nice pictures, too.

 

[iMac600]

then burning it shall be. the machine is broken down to bits, i have nice, clean access to the gpu. it's hard to miss, since it has a nice 'ati' logo on top. i'm assuming that i have to place the candle light on the top as opposed to the bottom seen in the burning 'tutorial'. the g4 ibooks have the gpu on the upper side of the mainboard, and it wouldn't make much sense to start heating the board itself on the bottom: the gpu might come even looser. please correct me if i'm wrong.

Well, keep in mind that i've never tried the "burning method" before myself... hence why maybe someone else here could offer some input on it. If you want to give it a shot though, I suppose it's an all or nothing repair now anyway. The only thing is having never tried it before, I can't endorse it. Follow the tutorial though, i'm sure it has a lot more information in it than I could ever provide on the topic.

The G3 iBooks had the GPU on the underside of the mainboard, while the G4 iBooks have the GPU mounted to the top side. So you would need to work on the top side of the board, basically wherever the ATI Logo is, that's where you need to do the repair. In addition it's gravity working here, so knocking the machine or turning it over or anything like that will possibly work the chip loose. Try to keep it as stable as possible during the repair.

 

[bamdad]

okay, i'm through with two burning sessions, and it works, but only partly. if i press gently on the gpu chip, it stil goes blank. i've noticed that the alcohol i'm using is only 70% pure, it's hard to set on fire, and it burns with almost no flame. i'm considering benzine, although that might produce a bit too excessive heat.

 

[Bunsen]

Would using just the wax in a tealight candle work? When they are almost burnt all the way down, all the remaining wax liquefies. Or would that not be hot enough?

 

[bamdad]

i think not. and it didn't work for the guy in the article.

anyway, i've succeeded, with a joint solution. there are two chips above the bigger one with the 'ati' label, and the right one remained sensitive to the touch. if i pressed down on it, the machine would boot normally. otherwise just blank screen. so i thought hey, i could put a copper plate between the heatsink and the chip while it's still hot, this way keeping it under a little pressure permanently. and it worked. i can toss it around, turn it upside down, it 'just' works now. the only problem is that this way the cpu runs 10-20C higher than normal, but i can live with that. maybe i'll put some more thermal paste in between sometime.

so i was just starting to get optimistic and happy, began to copy some music, pictures, useful apps onto the ibook when boom.. my hard drive died. now it refuses to do anything, i don't even get a sad mac or anything, since the machine can't even initialise it. it makes an annoying clicking sound, too.

i guess i'm just out of luck. next time i'll try to pick up a cheap ide hard drive (if they're still selling them, lol) and a gig of memory. right now it only has the onboard 256 megs.

thanks for all the help, i couldn't have done it without you.

 

[bamdad]

oh, just a quick last question: do you think a completely working powerbook duo 2300c (with charger and a battery that still holds charge for 30-40 minutes) for a g3 ibook is a fair trade? i'd like to get my hands on one of the latest laptops that can still run os 9 natively. mainly for taking notes and running old apps/games. i was just thinking that g3 ibooks are way too old to use for regular stuff, but they're not vintage either. so, what do you think? is this fair? or should i throw in some more goodies to make it worthwhile? should i post a thread in the trading lounge?

thanks,

bamdad

 

[PowerPup]

Do you think a completely working powerbook duo 2300c (with charger and a battery that still holds charge for 30-40 minutes) for a g3 ibook is a fair trade?

As long as the iBook G3 has a charger (or if you have one that will work,) and it is in working condition. I think it would be a good trade.

Glad to hear you got the video issue solved with your iBook G4! Great job bamdad & iMac600!

Aw, Hard drive failure? That's no fun.

Anyway, congrats again on your repair success! :rambo:

 

[bamdad]

thank you. i'm determined to making this machine working again. it still runs tiger (the best release mac os x so far in my opinion) quite nicely, and it'll be the perfect laptop for my mother.

anyway, i'll make a post about the duo then. i love it, but it's almost useless without a duo dock, which is really hard to come by. i've been trying to get my hands on one for years now. the only complete one i've found is expensive as hell. ethernet duo docks require drivers. feel the irony.