Very Slow Mac SE/30

[CompactMacLover]

Im working with my spare SE/30 I have.. I booted it from SSW 6.0.8 disk and it runs horribly slow, takes forever to do anything.. It has 5MB RAM installed

 

[bibilit]

Probably Hardware related, as 5 Meg is fine.

 

[phreakout]

Sounds to me like it could be RAM related. I take it you have say 4 x 1MB sticks in one half of the slots and 4 x 256 Kilobyte sticks in the other half. Those old 256 K sticks were rated for 100 nanoseconds or longer of latency rate, compared to the 1 MB sticks at anywhere from 40 nanoseconds to 80 nanoseconds. Those time differences can cause the SE/30 to slow down, especially if you have the slower RAM installed in all of Bank A. I'd say try swapping out the slower RAM for something faster and maybe even more MB for the penny.

Another thing to check is how many system extensions are installed and if they are causing conflicts, slowing the SE/30 down. I'm wondering, if too, whether AppleTalk and LocalTalk are still active and if they are the cause for slow performance. Also, if you have file-sharing enabled, that can slow down your SE/30. I'd double-check all that as well.

73s de Phreakout. :rambo:

 

[JDW]

Be sure to following phreakouts advice first and foremost. But another important question for you to answer is, have you every recapped the logic board? There are no SE/30 logic boards out there now which do not need to be recapped, perhaps excluding a rare few that have been air-sealed in plastic all these years and never used. Recap the board and then you can exclude that as being the root cause of any anomalies you find.

 

[CompactMacLover]

I dont possess the skills to recap the board, In this lot of them, I got 2 of them with good boards.. and one fixed my really nice SE/30. My hands shake way to much to use a soldering iron. Like this thing boots to SSW 6.. then waits about 20 seconds then the trash shows up, then another minute later the disk window opens..

 

[JDW]

There are some in this forum who do recapping jobs for reasonable prices. But since I am based in Japan, the cost of two way shipping would be cost prohibitive for me to do that job. Even so, pretty much all boards for the SE/30 need to be recapped now. Even the electrolytic capacitors on boards that have not been used in years have degraded tremendously over the past two decades. What you will find is that some boards with serious capacitive leaks will work only partly or not at all, while other boards will appear to work fine at first but unusual errors and crashes will surface over time, resulting from inadequate capacitance. With a recapped board, you won't need to worry that the logic board is the source of any problems you see, and you can therefore spend time troubleshooting other areas like the hard drive mechanism or extension conflicts should you have crashes or freezes.

 

[AichEss]

This thread is pure serendipity.

I have two logic boards, one for an SE/30, the other for a IIci, apparently in need of recap jobs. I am in the same situation as CompactMacLover - soldering on a printed circuit board is NOT (I assure you, NOT) listed in my skill set.

Neither board shows any obvious sign of chemical attack so I accept that the problems are with the capacitors themselves.

Is this the place to find someone who offers this recap service in the USA?

AichEss

 

[JDW]

Trag sells recap sets in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4884&p=153602

I can vouch for the quality of his caps since I have used them before myself:




I suggest you post a query in Trag's recap thread to see who among us will step forward and do the job for you.

 

[Mk.558]

What do you intend to do with the Mac?

With SSW 6.0.8, you may as well max out to 8MB. If you want to later install 7.0 or 7.5.5, I would prefer to have more for using a RAM Disk to speed things up. (For that matter, using a RAM Disk under 6.0.8 can also free up the HDD fro

System accessing.)

And for a further note, I would rather use axial leaded capacitors rather than SMTs. Those tantalum SMTs make soldering like a pro challenging indeed.

Edit: wait aren't they up for sale now?

 

[phreakout]

I won't rule out the possibility that recapping a board will improve speed (haven't seen enough proof to back that up, yet), but it may prove unnecessary if all it needed was a swap of RAM SIMMs. Whenever you try to recap a board, to me it's like saying it has a 50-50 chance of survival; each board is different in how well they take to the recapping job. One thing I risk each time is the possibility of one or more associated parts failing after a recap, such as the sound chip(s) or the SCSI controller chip, even though I did nothing wrong to provoke those states. So, if you want to try it yourself, or have a more professional person do the recapping for you, then do so at this simple risk. However, after a successful recap job, I can testify that the board will be good to go and not need anything more drastic done for the next handful of decades.

To confirm: Yes I do offer to still recap *any* 68K Mac logic board and have successfully done so for numerous members here at 68KMLA. If you'd like for me to do a recap job, send me a PM (private message) and we'll talk. Trag is a great source for recap kits and can put together the right combinations for a kit.

What do you intend to do with the Mac?
With SSW 6.0.8, you may as well max out to 8MB. If you want to later install 7.0 or 7.5.5, I would prefer to have more for using a RAM Disk to speed things up. (For that matter, using a RAM Disk under 6.0.8 can also free up the HDD fro

System accessing.)

And for a further note, I would rather use axial leaded capacitors rather than SMTs. Those tantalum SMTs make soldering like a pro challenging indeed.

Edit: wait aren't they up for sale now?

I agree. Even though SSW 6.0.x is very light and doesn"t need much RAM, I too recommend making sure to at least start the SE/30 out with 8 MB installed. That way you're all set for the jump to System 7.0 and 7.0.1, which are a bit better feature-wise to System 6. Installing more than 8 MBs will give you more leg room, plus allow for less virtual memory swap file access.

I don't mind the SMT components so much as compared to intuitive design and layout. If you do choose to go with SMTs, make sure you give the technician working on the board enough elbow room and, in my opinion, install chip sockets. I can't tell you how many times I've loathed removing an IC that was installed without their sockets. Simplistic design over cost is what it came down to.

73s de Phreakout. :rambo:

 

[Byrd]

Erm why hasn't anyone suggested a crapped out, flaky floppy drive or HD causing all the delay?

 

[JDW]

Erm why hasn't anyone suggested a crapped out, flaky floppy drive or HD causing all the delay?

Quite simply because one should solve the bigger problem first, then troubleshoot from there. All SE/30's need their logic boards recapped. To avoid doing that and proceeding with troubleshooting means you may not ultimately find the source of the trouble.

As to using axial electrolytics, they will work... for about 15 years. Then you will need to replace them again. The SMD tantalums won't need to be replaced. There are still two big caps on the SE/30 logic board that cannot be replaced with tants, since tants don't come that big. But in light of the size and purpose for those two big caps (both axials by the way), you might get away with a life of more than 15 years for them. Indeed, I've recapped one SE/30 board, all except for those two big axial caps, and the board worked fine. One may contend I was merely lucky. But I don't think so in light of how they are used electronically on the motherboard.

My advice is to pay a pro to do a job with tants rather than save a few bucks and resort to fluid-filled caps because it's easier for you to do it.

 

[Byrd]

Quite simply because one should solve the bigger problem first, then troubleshoot from there. All SE/30's need their logic boards recapped. To avoid doing that and proceeding with troubleshooting means you may not ultimately find the source of the trouble.

The OP has stated he/she is unable to diagnose and replace caps. Getting a "pro" to replace these will cost a pretty penny, when all that is wrong is perhaps a faulty floppy drive, hard disk on the way out, out or faulty RAM - all of which are more commonplace. Surely simple troubleshooting should involve ruling out the basic things first, before resorting to component level repair. I've come across several SE and two SE/30 machines that worked without issue, without capacitor repair, in 2011. Of note, most of these had failing floppy drives or seized/noisy/dead hard disks.

JB

 

[JDW]

Getting a "pro" to replace these will cost a pretty penny...

We all define "pretty penny" differently. I suspect it may cost just under US$100 by the time two way shipping is factored in (which also would include the cost of the capacitors). I am by no means rich, yet I wouldn't define a sub-$100 fee "a pretty penny." But one cannot cast judgment until a volunteer here to do the job has submitted a price.

...all that is wrong is perhaps a faulty floppy drive, hard disk on the way out, out or faulty RAM - all of which are more commonplace. Surely simple troubleshooting should involve ruling out the basic things first, before resorting to component level repair.

Such is logical, I agree. However, I know all too well that when we human beings see a temporary solution in front of us, we tend to forgo what's most important. Regardless of what may be wrong with the machine, it should be recapped. Only then can one know for sure if the problem is resulting from the commonplace sources you described. What I say now is not to in any way lessen the need to heed your advice. Your advice is sound. But the advice to recap the board is also sound, and in fact, over time fault caps will render the computer unusable.

Some among us in other threads have also mentioned that leaked fluid has eaten away at PCB traces on their logic boards. In those cases it would take more than a mere cap-job to fix it. All broken traces would need to be repaired, and depending on how extensive the traces have been eaten away, it may or may not make sense to even try to restore the board. But if you catch a leaked capacitor problem early enough, you might be able to get away with a sub-$100 cap job that would solve a host of problems, including some that have the appearance of being mere commonplace. That's why I feel it important to avoid just "fixing a minor problem now" while turning a blind eye to a potentially even bigger problem that will surface in the near future. And in my experience, that future gets nearer the more you use the machine.

 

[Apostrophe]

Byrd and JDW, you're both right.

One of my Mac SEs used to be incredibly slow as well. It took exactly 1 min 45 seconds to load up Microsoft Word, it was ridiculous. And you know what I did? I reformatted the hard drive. Boom, problem solved. To this day I've had no problems with it whatsoever.

But JDW is right as well, all 25-year-old Macs need to be recapped. But on some machines it's more urgent than others. HDD reformatting is a "temporary" fix, yes, but in some cases "temporary" could mean months or even years.

 

[CompactMacLover]

Yeah its horribly slow booting off the boot floppy, The SSW 6.0.8 disk boots 10x faster in the other Mac SEs

 

[JDW]

I would like to add that I had intermittent problems with vintage Mac equipment OTHER THAN logic boards too. I had all manner of problems with my IIgs keyboard used with my SE/30. I resoldered the ADB sockets multiple times, I swapped out cables, I tested it on another vintage make -- nothing worked. The problem was that it would lose contact with the computer, and yanking the ADB chord and plugging it in again wouldn't always restore it, forcing me to reboot. I hated that. Then one day I thought about it logically and said to myself, "there must be some fluid filled caps on this circuit board somewhere." So I broke the keyboard apart and searched. Sure enough there were a couple tiny electrolytic caps on there. I swapped them out with tantalums, put everything back together and booted. I've never had a problem with it since.

So recapping applies to anything with fluid filled caps -- even floppy drives.

By the way, I've even recapped Mac 128k and 512k logic boards too. I've found that it helped to resolve some artifacts I had seen on screen.

 

[phreakout]

Okay, sounds like CML has a problem with the internal floppy; possibly misaligned, very dirty, needing a recap done or just replace the drive. Any route you take to fix the issue will be solely your decision. I think replacing the drive will be easier to do.

How is it booting off of an internal or external HDD, still sluggish?

73s de Phreakout. :rambo:

 

[CompactMacLover]

Cant install an OS on it to test it to boot from the internal Hard drive.. Looks like ill pop a good floppy drive in it