The ultimate System 6 box

[eraser]

I hope to make my Mac II an 'ultimate System 6' box. Since System 7+ is so common I would like to focus on finding hardware and software that did not run well or at all with System 7.

I know that the Apple Scanner (first version) and PC Compatibility Drive and Card are good places to start.

Recommendations for hardware and software?

 

[spiceyokooko]

Good luck with getting a PC Compatibility Card to work with System 6.x, AFAIK it will only work with System 7.x.

Cheers!

 

[ClassicHasClass]

8*24*GC is a very fast video card and they do better under System 6. It should rock a Mac II's world.

 

[uniserver]

i think this is a good idea, with a 68000 OS6 runs smooth and snappy!

i want to follow this to see what machines and hardware get mentioned!

were talking 6.0.8 correct?

 

[Anonymous Freak]

He specified the PC Compatibility Drive, not the PC Compatibility Board. This isn't the one with the Intel chip that runs DOS, this is the one that lets you use an external 360 KB 5.25" PC floppy disk drive.

 

[eraser]

8*24*GC is a very fast video card and they do better under System 6. It should rock a Mac II's world.

Ah, that is a very good idea and there is a System 6 driver for it. Anyone have one of these? :wink:

were talking 6.0.8 correct?

Correct.

He specified the PC Compatibility Drive, not the PC Compatibility Board. This isn't the one with the Intel chip that runs DOS, this is the one that lets you use an external 360 KB 5.25" PC floppy disk drive.

You are correct. The PC Compatibility Drive hardware and the Apple Scanner gave me the idea since neither of them are very happy in a System 7+ world. From what I understand the PC Compatibility Drive won't even run on a Mac that has FDHD ROMs!

 

[spiceyokooko]

Ah, that is a very good idea and there is a System 6 driver for it. Anyone have one of these?

Not much of a challenge is it if you're gonna simply ask for the correct drivers!

Go forth and seek!

 

[spiceyokooko]

He specified the PC Compatibility Drive, not the PC Compatibility Board. This isn't the one with the Intel chip that runs DOS, this is the one that lets you use an external 360 KB 5.25" PC floppy disk drive.

You 'know it alls' make me laugh. Not only do you pick me up on 'potentially' misinterpreting what someone has said, you don't even know yourself what the item he's referring to is called, which is even funnier!

First off, there's no such thing as a PC Compatibility Drive. Is this some term you just made up?

You must be referring to the Apple PC 5.25 Drive, as shown in the picture of my manual for it.

There is also of course a PC Compatibility Card, also as shown in the picture of my manual for it.

You Sir, stand corrected!

 

[eraser]

Not much of a challenge is it if you're gonna simply ask for the correct drivers!
Go forth and seek!

They journey/challenge has only begun. :b&w:

I had already found the Apple PC 5.25 Drive and Apple Scanner (with manuals) before this project started but I assume there will be much more to add and plan for as people offer suggestions.

You must be referring to the Apple PC 5.25 Drive, as shown in the picture of my manual for it.
There is also of course a PC Compatibility Card, also as shown in the picture of my manual for it.

I didn't expect the proper name to be that important. Also, to be fair some Nubus PC Cards (Orange386 IIRC) did use the same drive connector. It looked the same at least, I am not sure if the pinouts matched what the Apple PC 5.25 Drive expected.

 

[CelGen]

The PC Compatibility Drive hardware and the Apple Scanner gave me the idea since neither of them are very happy in a System 7+ world. From what I understand the PC Compatibility Drive won't even run on a Mac that has FDHD ROMs!

Incorrect.

I have both working on my Absolutely Apple IIfx system which runs 7.1. The PC Compatibility drive (Apple 5.25" Floppy Disk Drive) is purely software driven and does not even need an extension. The scanner does however require an extension but behaves well enough both with the Apple software and Photoshop.

 

[eraser]

Ah, I was misinformed. That's good to know. Thanks!

I found where I got the (incorrect) bit of info about the FDHD ROMs:

http://vintagemacworld.com/drives.html

All of the other references about using the drive pointed to System 6. I guess it was perhaps because once users got into the System 7 era the need for a 360K 5.25" drive was fading a bit. Now that I look at this page having planned this project it does make me wonder more about the Orange and AST PC cards. It would be cool to have a DOS compatibility card running on "the ultimate system 6" machine. :ii:

That is also good to know about the Apple Scanner. The software that comes with the scanner itself is not system 7 compatible. I found that Apple did release new drivers for System 7 although those only work in 24-bit addressing mode (which for an old Mac isn't a bit deal).

 

[CelGen]

Huh. I wonder what they mean by the incompatibility. I wonder if they mean for the adapter they also released for the SE systems.

 

[jruschme]

didn't expect the proper name to be that important. Also, to be fair some Nubus PC Cards (Orange386 IIRC) did use the same drive connector. It looked the same at least, I am not sure if the pinouts matched what the Apple PC 5.25 Drive expected.

They are the same pinout. The Mac286 will also work with the Apple 5.25" drive.

Supposedly, there is also a 3.5" 720K drive from IBM that will work with the Mac286 and Orange 386. I don't know if it works with the Apple card.

 

[CelGen]

IBM also has a 360k external floppy drive that uses the same connector however it needs to be repinned as it has its own power supply, where the Apple version draws power from the Mac itself.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Proper nomenclature is always preferable, but the give and take here, regarding such, is a journey of discovery for all involved.

Wasn't there an OrangePC (286?) Card that had an ISA slot built into it?

 

[jruschme]

zWasn't there an OrangePC (286?) Card that had an ISA slot built into it?

I'm pretty sure it was a 386.

 

[Arthegall]

What do you mean by "ultimate"?

If by "ultimate" you mean blazing and badass, then a Mac II isn't going to be it with 6.0.8.

If by "ultimate" you mean most flexible and backwards compatible, then a Mac II can be that, but you have to plan in those terms.

From a software point of view, the real "strength" of System 6 is the ability to play nice with application software that isn't 32-bit clean. Moreover, since you're talking about a Mac II, you're dealing with a platform that predates System 6.0 by a year and 6.0.8 by four years. Its real strength is backwards compatibility.

IMO, it can be the "ultimate" 6.0.8 system in the same sense that a late G4 PowerMac can be the ultimate Leopard system. Both predate the system software by several years and both have a slower processor than the models that were current when the system software came out, but both can boot in earlier versions of system software and run legacy software that the newer machines can't. And in the Mac II's favor, I doubt it will take the same kind of relative performance hit in System 6 against say, a Iici, as a late G4 in Leopard would against a quad core Mac Pro.

Another thing to keep in mind is that System 6 didn't change that much from 6.0 to 6.0.8. Most of the various releases were compatibility releases modified to include support for newer machines as they were introduced. (Apple tried to avoid these kinds of compatibility releases with System 7 by releasing specific system enablers for new machines instead.) So unless there are features of 6.0.8 you specifically want like better printer or networking compatibility with System 7, you might be better off with an earlier version like 6.0.2 instead. It all depends what you want.

If I were you, I'd probably put System Software 5.1 or 6.0 or 6.0.2 on it try to make it into the ultimate Mac workstation circa 1987-1988 when it was the $10,000 beast, not the aged champ of yesteryear circa 1991 when 6.0.8 and System 7 came out.

 

[eraser]

If by "ultimate" you mean most flexible and backwards compatible, then a Mac II can be that, but you have to plan in those terms.


IMO, it can be the "ultimate" 6.0.8 system in the same sense that a late G4 PowerMac can be the ultimate Leopard system. Both predate the system software by several years and both have a slower processor than the models that were current when the system software came out, but both can boot in earlier versions of system software and run legacy software that the newer machines can't. And in the Mac II's favor, I doubt it will take the same kind of relative performance hit in System 6 against say, a Iici, as a late G4 in Leopard would against a quad core Mac Pro.

[emphasis mine] Good point, this is exactly what I am going for!

I would like to build a system that has (some of) the best pre-7 hardware and software. It seems that so many people run for System 7, even on 8MHz Macs, and in doing so exclude some of the early Mac apps that weren't fully compatible with it. I would like to build a machine that showcases those apps.

Perhaps I should have referred to it as "The last stand pre-System 7 Mac II". This Mac would be able to run legacy software (and hardware) that newer Macs and newer OSes can't run.

If I were you, I'd probably put System Software 5.1 or 6.0 or 6.0.2 on it try to make it into the ultimate Mac workstation circa 1987-1988 when it was the $10,000 beast, not the aged champ of yesteryear circa 1991 when 6.0.8 and System 7 came out.

Indeed. I did focus a bit on compatibility because there are a few apps that ran on early OSes but work fine with System 7. Since these apps/hardware work fine with later OSes they are not as quite exciting to see back in operation. Having said that, it does not need to be exclusive.

So what apps and hardware would make a 1987-1990 Mac person envious? :ii:

 

[Arthegall]

Well, my perfect build is an 86-87 Mac Plus setup, so I'll start with what's similar to mine.

A CD drive, definitely an AppleCD SC, which was their first. I have the drivers, if you need them.

A printer, definitely a LaserWriter, probably the LaserWriter II series, which were top-of-the-line in 1988. In a pinch, go with an ImageWriter II.

A modem. The Apple Personal Modem (1985) would do, but an Apple Fax Modem (1987) or Apple Data Modem 2400 (1989) would be better.

Depending on what your II has, you might want an external HDD like an AppleHD 40SC or some such.

Also consider an FDHD, although I'm not sure that's the right one.

There's also the tape backup drive like in CelGen's IIfx setup, and the scanner, and the external floppy drives. There's going to be some overlap between yours and his.

What monitor you pick is important for your setup, whether color or big monochrome. I'd talk to CelGen; he knows what's up.

InfoWorld magazine's complete run in the 80s is archived in Google books and can be read online. They had lots and lots of Mac business software/hardware reviews and advertisements. You're definitely talking a big professional setup, so see what was hot in 87 and 88 and choose accordingly. You will overlap with CelGen, but the idea is to peg it pretty precisely to a certain date range so you've got some historical authenticity. I, for example, have a ThunderScan instead of a flatbed scanner and an HD20 instead of an HD 20SC. That's in keeping with my 1986ish range.

Also checkout Macworld from 86-88 if you can get your hands on them. Try interlibrary loan. Very helpful resources.

Have fun!