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The special screwdriver for opening compact Macs...
- Thread starter MinerAl
- Start date
Just a few things I noticed in my apartment that were made in China:
SHARP LCD TV
SHARP air purifier
Mac Mini
Retina MacBook Pro
2006 MacBook Pro
iPhone 4S
Several ThinkPads
Desk chair
Lots of other things
Some things that were not made in China:
Various SGI workstations (Switzerland)
SGI CRT monitors (Japan)
Rice cooker (Japan)
Panasonic/Sony/Yamaha stereo equipment (Japan)
Various household goods (Japan)
Sun Ultra 24 workstation (United States)
Power Mac G4 (United States)
Wristwatch (East Germany)
Lots of other things
They all seem to be of roughly the same quality (except for the East German watch, but I still love it). I guess "China" isn't so terrible at making things after all, except... wait a minute... China is actually a complex society of over a billion people and countless companies, not a monolithic entity. So much for being able to make blanket judgments about the quality of something (much less something as simple as a hand tool) based on which country it was made in.
SHARP LCD TV
SHARP air purifier
Mac Mini
Retina MacBook Pro
2006 MacBook Pro
iPhone 4S
Several ThinkPads
Desk chair
Lots of other things
Some things that were not made in China:
Various SGI workstations (Switzerland)
SGI CRT monitors (Japan)
Rice cooker (Japan)
Panasonic/Sony/Yamaha stereo equipment (Japan)
Various household goods (Japan)
Sun Ultra 24 workstation (United States)
Power Mac G4 (United States)
Wristwatch (East Germany)
Lots of other things
They all seem to be of roughly the same quality (except for the East German watch, but I still love it). I guess "China" isn't so terrible at making things after all, except... wait a minute... China is actually a complex society of over a billion people and countless companies, not a monolithic entity. So much for being able to make blanket judgments about the quality of something (much less something as simple as a hand tool) based on which country it was made in.
Brett B.
Well-known member
I don't rag on Chinese stuff either, plenty of total crap came out of American factories. I love my Harbor Freight tools, for the most part they have been good quality and with a few mods here and there to select power tools - I have some excellent tools that get the job done and are lifetime warranty.
My issue is with stuff that IS actually junk, that is sold by American stores, with American name brands stamped on it, that is identical to the vastly cheaper Chinese model. Who cares what name it has on it, as long as it gets the job done and doesn't break.
My issue is with stuff that IS actually junk, that is sold by American stores, with American name brands stamped on it, that is identical to the vastly cheaper Chinese model. Who cares what name it has on it, as long as it gets the job done and doesn't break.
There is some good quality stuff that comes out of China, no arguing there. The issue I have is that the quality is so variable that you never know what you're getting, and so many established brands with solid reputations have become nothing more than a name and logo slapped on products of questionable quality produced by an outsourced manufacture. Quality control in general is an issue and brands are virtually meaningless. Some stuff is good and some stuff is complete garbage and it can be very difficult to tell until you have it in your hands. Sometimes you even find something that's very well made, buy another identical one and that one is shoddy.
Also I try to support manufacturing in my own country as well as others that have similar standards on environmental regulations, working conditions and living standards. China is improving, but it has a long way to go. It's possible they will be like Japan, which had a reputation for building cheap junk in the first couple decades after WWII, but rose to produce some of the best quality electronics in the world from the 1970s through the 90s. Sony Trinitron monitors were the gold standard for decades, and the quality of Japanese cars of the era put ours to shame.
Anyway my point is I will pay a premium if I can count on the fact that I'm getting a premium product, but I will not pay a premium for a name slapped on who knows what.
Also I try to support manufacturing in my own country as well as others that have similar standards on environmental regulations, working conditions and living standards. China is improving, but it has a long way to go. It's possible they will be like Japan, which had a reputation for building cheap junk in the first couple decades after WWII, but rose to produce some of the best quality electronics in the world from the 1970s through the 90s. Sony Trinitron monitors were the gold standard for decades, and the quality of Japanese cars of the era put ours to shame.
Anyway my point is I will pay a premium if I can count on the fact that I'm getting a premium product, but I will not pay a premium for a name slapped on who knows what.
Has Craftsman really ever been a "premium" or "professional" brand in hand-tools? (or anything they make.) I always thought it was aiming at the upper part of low end, or the mid-range at best, like tools for people who like to own tools, but not necessarily for people who are going to make money with them.
I'm pretty certain Sony was running those factories and imposing their strict quality control on the products. They weren't slapping the Sony label on the lowest bidding outsourced manufacture of the week, which is the current norm for a lot of goods. Companies tend to view a brand as just that, a brand, consisting of a name, logo and past reputation, which is frequently applied to products made by who knows who, some of which may be great but who knows?
I never claimed they ONLY made them in Japan. Notice though that virtually all of those locations are in first-world nations with relatively high standards of living, health and safety regulations, environmental regulations, etc placing them on a level playing field. I would still argue though that the stuff they made in Japan in the 70s-80s was the best quality stuff they ever made. There was a good reason that Sun, SGI and Apple all used Sony-made monitors with their high end stuff. The reason most manufacturing has moved to China these days is because it's cheap, period. Lower cost of living, fewer regulations, workers can be paid less, worked harder, under poorer conditions, because it's cheaper, and in some (not all, but some) cases you get what you pay for. Lack of regulation, poor quality control, and the eternal quest for cheaper and cheaper goods is the reason we have ended up with so many incidents with high levels of lead and other contaminants in toys and other goods, pet food, etc.
I never claimed they ONLY made them in Japan. Notice though that virtually all of those locations are in first-world nations with relatively high standards of living, health and safety regulations, environmental regulations, etc placing them on a level playing field. I would still argue though that the stuff they made in Japan in the 70s-80s was the best quality stuff they ever made. There was a good reason that Sun, SGI and Apple all used Sony-made monitors with their high end stuff. The reason most manufacturing has moved to China these days is because it's cheap, period. Lower cost of living, fewer regulations, workers can be paid less, worked harder, under poorer conditions, because it's cheaper, and in some (not all, but some) cases you get what you pay for. Lack of regulation, poor quality control, and the eternal quest for cheaper and cheaper goods is the reason we have ended up with so many incidents with high levels of lead and other contaminants in toys and other goods, pet food, etc.
This should probably be moved to the lounge, but I came across an article that does a rather good job IMO of outlining the current problems and some of the underlying causes.
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/alpha-consumer/2009/04/23/explaining-chinas-quality-control-problems
There is some very well made stuff coming from China, but the vast number of sketchy manufactures producing millions of tons of questionable knockoff goods soils the reputation of the rest in that it's hard to trust anything when so much of it falls short.
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/alpha-consumer/2009/04/23/explaining-chinas-quality-control-problems
There is some very well made stuff coming from China, but the vast number of sketchy manufactures producing millions of tons of questionable knockoff goods soils the reputation of the rest in that it's hard to trust anything when so much of it falls short.
There's an extremely thin line between xenophobia and racism, and a legitimate discussion about the economic issues affecting a country.
Let's be careful, lest we tread too close to the xenophobia and racism, which is certainly starting to happen here.
It's possible to have a reasonable and even good discussion about the economic issues, even though they sometimes encroach on politics a little bit. However, it doesn't look like that's what's happening here.
Let's be careful, lest we tread too close to the xenophobia and racism, which is certainly starting to happen here.
It's possible to have a reasonable and even good discussion about the economic issues, even though they sometimes encroach on politics a little bit. However, it doesn't look like that's what's happening here.
This has nothing to do with race, it's a matter of economics and culture, the issues being largely our own doing in the eternal quest for cheaper and cheaper goods. It just so happens that China is the current location we as a nation are exploiting for their cheap labor due to low wages and not having to deal with all the regulations present in more developed nations. Eventually things will mature there and standards will rise, or resources will dwindle and the environmental damage from the rapid uncontrolled industrial development will catch up to them. Having spent my career in the tech industry I see it every day. It's all about doing anything that can be done to shave pennies off the cost of goods in order to maximize quarterly profit. Cost cutting revisions of a product are made, manufactures are pushed for lower and lower bids, each time pushing to make it just a little bit cheaper to build while still projecting an acceptable number of units to last through the warranty period.
uniserver
Well-known member
I have been using Craftsman tools on and off for years, right now my go to tool kit, is a little $19.99 stanley set I keep under my drives seat.
I remember when Craftsman sockets/ratchets went from saying "Made in USA" to "Made in China"
I'm not going to sit here and say Craftsman has always made fantastic tools either.
What I will say is this, I have some inside information. Everywhere I go, I talk to people.
Here at work, I chat every now and then with the plumbers, to see what they think about stuff.
Not everyone says the same thing, you know what they say about opinions, everyone has one.
Lots of people have some pretty decent things to say about Lowe's tools.
As far as Quality, Price and Availability. Plumbers / Mechanics / Truckers
Personally, My experience with Lowe's has been reasonable.
But sears is a place that use to be " the place " for the working man, not any more, It seems to me, in my opinion.
also pretty much all the plumbers hate Moen and American Standard branded faucets etc, even though it makes them alot of money
due to service calls, they pretty much all say it's garbage.
Plumbers, most all like Delta and any MASCO, Variant, Masco owns delta and many other brands.
Even Their off brand peerless witch is made in China. Is still preferred over Moen/AS, because it is made to Masco's strict specifications.
Tools are alot like guns, They are going to eventually break, but How long will it last before it breaks?
IF you buy a harbor freight belt sander and it burns out half way through your job, Then you really haven't saved
any money shopping there have you? --- Even if you bring it back and they give you another one.
I remember when Craftsman sockets/ratchets went from saying "Made in USA" to "Made in China"
I'm not going to sit here and say Craftsman has always made fantastic tools either.
What I will say is this, I have some inside information. Everywhere I go, I talk to people.
Here at work, I chat every now and then with the plumbers, to see what they think about stuff.
Not everyone says the same thing, you know what they say about opinions, everyone has one.
Lots of people have some pretty decent things to say about Lowe's tools.
As far as Quality, Price and Availability. Plumbers / Mechanics / Truckers
Personally, My experience with Lowe's has been reasonable.
But sears is a place that use to be " the place " for the working man, not any more, It seems to me, in my opinion.
also pretty much all the plumbers hate Moen and American Standard branded faucets etc, even though it makes them alot of money
due to service calls, they pretty much all say it's garbage.
Plumbers, most all like Delta and any MASCO, Variant, Masco owns delta and many other brands.
Even Their off brand peerless witch is made in China. Is still preferred over Moen/AS, because it is made to Masco's strict specifications.
Tools are alot like guns, They are going to eventually break, but How long will it last before it breaks?
IF you buy a harbor freight belt sander and it burns out half way through your job, Then you really haven't saved
any money shopping there have you? --- Even if you bring it back and they give you another one.
markyb86
Well-known member
mildly off topic gray area, but I have a trusty craftsman jig saw that's about 25 years old. the plate that you can set the angle of the cut is loose and unable to be completely tightened. do you think that would qualify as a replacement?
I have never had a problem with craftsman or stanley. hell even greatneck works good for my purposes. really the only tools I have had fail or break on me were cheapos from big lots or similar.
I have never had a problem with craftsman or stanley. hell even greatneck works good for my purposes. really the only tools I have had fail or break on me were cheapos from big lots or similar.
Scott Baret
Well-known member
Craftsman, to me, is the mainstream DIYer brand. It's not something you'll find your carpenter using in general, but it gets the job done for most everyday things around the house. Example--I have a nice Craftsman drill that works well for the things I do (repairs, building smaller pieces of furniture on occasions where I don't want to use a drill press, etc). However, if I were actually making a living as a carpenter, I'd likely buy a high-end DeWalt (and keep that Craftsman for around the home because it's such a good drill).
I really don't have a ton of Craftsman stuff for hand tools. Most of my computer tools came together in a kit from Radio Shack, a gift from my grandfather when I first started tinkering with hardware. (He also got me a soldering gun and I think of him every time I use the tools). The Torx drivers are the only Craftsman products in my entire computer set. Of my workbench tools, outside of that drill, the only Craftsman hand tools I have are my wrenches (including a torque wrench), a ball peen hammer, nut drivers, and screwdrivers. Most everything else is Stanley, Nicholson, Wiss, or some defunct tool company from 100 years ago (a lot of my tools were my great grandfather's; they sat idly from his death until I was old enough to use them). My toolbox is Master Mechanic brand for what it's worth (my cabinets and workbench are F.L. Baret brand--that is, my great grandfather; I refurbished them years later).
Power tool-wise, I really only use one brand for the larger ones, and that's Delta. It's a professional line and I haven't been disappointed. I only wish I had room in an apartment for everything (had to leave my table saw, bandsaw, drill press, and router behind--can't wait to be back in Pittsburgh so I can go to the old house and build furniture again).
I did get a Craftsman circular saw, but it died within 13 years. I've been debating about repairing it, but I've found I only have needed a circular saw on one occasion since it died since I usually just use my other larger tools for that sort of stuff.
If any brand has fallen from glory lately, it's Black and Decker. Their stuff was pretty good 20 years ago, but I wouldn't dare touch it now aside from the AutoWrench (one of the cooler new tool ideas to come out recently). Since the mid-90s, I've been through two of their vacs, a Snakelight, two screwdrivers, and a toaster oven (which I had to return since it kept smelling like it was going to burn down). I still have my old drill (made in 1956!), a pop-up toaster (1994), and a very old toaster oven (1990) going strong. I'd still have a dust buster if I hadn't traded it once I inherited my grandparents' old Hoover PortaPower. VersaPak was perhaps the worst battery technology ever.
Enough about this--as you can tell, my other hobby is woodworking and I really want to get back into it now that my old woodshop will be within a few miles of whatever apartment I move in to instead of 480 miles north of me
I do have a vacuum-mounted vise and a few tools here, but nothing beats building porch rockers on those rainy summer Sunday afternoons.
I really don't have a ton of Craftsman stuff for hand tools. Most of my computer tools came together in a kit from Radio Shack, a gift from my grandfather when I first started tinkering with hardware. (He also got me a soldering gun and I think of him every time I use the tools). The Torx drivers are the only Craftsman products in my entire computer set. Of my workbench tools, outside of that drill, the only Craftsman hand tools I have are my wrenches (including a torque wrench), a ball peen hammer, nut drivers, and screwdrivers. Most everything else is Stanley, Nicholson, Wiss, or some defunct tool company from 100 years ago (a lot of my tools were my great grandfather's; they sat idly from his death until I was old enough to use them). My toolbox is Master Mechanic brand for what it's worth (my cabinets and workbench are F.L. Baret brand--that is, my great grandfather; I refurbished them years later).
Power tool-wise, I really only use one brand for the larger ones, and that's Delta. It's a professional line and I haven't been disappointed. I only wish I had room in an apartment for everything (had to leave my table saw, bandsaw, drill press, and router behind--can't wait to be back in Pittsburgh so I can go to the old house and build furniture again).
I did get a Craftsman circular saw, but it died within 13 years. I've been debating about repairing it, but I've found I only have needed a circular saw on one occasion since it died since I usually just use my other larger tools for that sort of stuff.
If any brand has fallen from glory lately, it's Black and Decker. Their stuff was pretty good 20 years ago, but I wouldn't dare touch it now aside from the AutoWrench (one of the cooler new tool ideas to come out recently). Since the mid-90s, I've been through two of their vacs, a Snakelight, two screwdrivers, and a toaster oven (which I had to return since it kept smelling like it was going to burn down). I still have my old drill (made in 1956!), a pop-up toaster (1994), and a very old toaster oven (1990) going strong. I'd still have a dust buster if I hadn't traded it once I inherited my grandparents' old Hoover PortaPower. VersaPak was perhaps the worst battery technology ever.
Enough about this--as you can tell, my other hobby is woodworking and I really want to get back into it now that my old woodshop will be within a few miles of whatever apartment I move in to instead of 480 miles north of me
I do have a vacuum-mounted vise and a few tools here, but nothing beats building porch rockers on those rainy summer Sunday afternoons.
Trash80toHP_Mini
NIGHT STALKER
Amen to that, making wood shavings just for the sound, tactile feedback and beautiful curls rolling off a well set up plane when pushing or pulling it through an aromatic board leaves absolutely nothing to be desired!
As far as Craftsman tools go, their mechanics too sets and boxes were marketed to compete with fully professional brands like Snap-On back when my grandpa was setting up shop. It's easier to go to Sears or buy tools mail order from them than it is to get the Snap-On truck to stop by your home or farm workshop.
Their Power tools were never warrantied for life, just the hand tools. Some of the early Craftsman Power Tools like Jointers and TableSaws were pretty nice. I don't remember which year it was, but when Sears switched to imported power tools, the quality went way down.
As I recall, Home Depot put the mill to work producing their Rigid Brand power tools, they're undoubtedly from offshore as well.
Offrshore isn't a bad word to me, I had an inexpensive horizontal bandsaw from the Rong Fu mill in Taiwan that was incredible. Some that looked the same were just terrible.
I haven't had the heart to look at a Delta 14 Bandsaw in years, my 1 HP enclosed base 14 is industrial to the bone, what I saw just a few years back clearly wasn't.
Dunno, life goes on . . .
As far as Craftsman tools go, their mechanics too sets and boxes were marketed to compete with fully professional brands like Snap-On back when my grandpa was setting up shop. It's easier to go to Sears or buy tools mail order from them than it is to get the Snap-On truck to stop by your home or farm workshop.
Their Power tools were never warrantied for life, just the hand tools. Some of the early Craftsman Power Tools like Jointers and TableSaws were pretty nice. I don't remember which year it was, but when Sears switched to imported power tools, the quality went way down.
As I recall, Home Depot put the mill to work producing their Rigid Brand power tools, they're undoubtedly from offshore as well.
Offrshore isn't a bad word to me, I had an inexpensive horizontal bandsaw from the Rong Fu mill in Taiwan that was incredible. Some that looked the same were just terrible.
I haven't had the heart to look at a Delta 14 Bandsaw in years, my 1 HP enclosed base 14 is industrial to the bone, what I saw just a few years back clearly wasn't.
Dunno, life goes on . . .
Scott Baret
Well-known member
Don't forget, some domestically-produced goods are awful, too. I won't buy a car with an American-made transmission and while I don't want to generalize, every American car we've had in the past 20 years had major transmission issues; the same can be said for many of my friends. (Of course, a tranny is only as good as how you maintain it sometimes; I like to flush mine every 30K or so and actually will be doing that next week since I recently hit that mileage milestone. Still, my old Legend went about a decade between tranny flushes and never had a tranny problem).
Outside of transmissions, my mom had a very unreliable Eureka sweeper built in the USA. It was in the shop at least a few times a year. Why she held on to it for 13 years is the pressing question.
Sometimes, it's just a matter of preference. If you play piano, you've probably noticed a "tinnier" sound from some Japanese models (Yamahas in particular). It's not a question of reliability there, but more or less of style and sound. I actually have a Yamaha synth and a Baldwin upright (best of both worlds). I'm sure I could find other examples to use here, too, but this one comes to mind since I remember hearing a dramatic difference in sound when I played a Yamaha piano for the first time.
Outside of transmissions, my mom had a very unreliable Eureka sweeper built in the USA. It was in the shop at least a few times a year. Why she held on to it for 13 years is the pressing question.
Sometimes, it's just a matter of preference. If you play piano, you've probably noticed a "tinnier" sound from some Japanese models (Yamahas in particular). It's not a question of reliability there, but more or less of style and sound. I actually have a Yamaha synth and a Baldwin upright (best of both worlds). I'm sure I could find other examples to use here, too, but this one comes to mind since I remember hearing a dramatic difference in sound when I played a Yamaha piano for the first time.
Or you could buy a manual and not have to worry about flushing the transmission fluid and all the other crazy stuff that goes on inside of a slushbox.
off topic>
As for the tools, my process for buying them is much simpler than for anything else. I generally import any electronics with built-in software or with extensive panels of buttons for language and style reasons (home appliances like air purifiers and dehumidifiers on the Japanese market tend to have a lot of thought put into the design, while US-market ones generally look like something that belongs in a garage), and before I buy, I do a lot of research, read reviews, etc. Hand tools are easy, though, because there are no internal electronics and little to no mechanical parts to guess about, and they're basically the same everywhere. I just go to the store, look them over, handle them, and buy the one that seems the most solid and ergonomic. I've accumulated a number of different brands this way and I haven't really paid attention to which they are, or been unsatisfied with any of them.
off topic>
As for the tools, my process for buying them is much simpler than for anything else. I generally import any electronics with built-in software or with extensive panels of buttons for language and style reasons (home appliances like air purifiers and dehumidifiers on the Japanese market tend to have a lot of thought put into the design, while US-market ones generally look like something that belongs in a garage), and before I buy, I do a lot of research, read reviews, etc. Hand tools are easy, though, because there are no internal electronics and little to no mechanical parts to guess about, and they're basically the same everywhere. I just go to the store, look them over, handle them, and buy the one that seems the most solid and ergonomic. I've accumulated a number of different brands this way and I haven't really paid attention to which they are, or been unsatisfied with any of them.
retrocore9
Active member
Heres a torx 15 that i got from Amazon that worked perfectly opening my classic 2. Hope this helps anyone.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001M0O17A/ref=pe_309540_26725410_item
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001M0O17A/ref=pe_309540_26725410_item
Trash80toHP_Mini
NIGHT STALKER
Dunno, maybe, likely way more trouble than it's worth.
It's more of an "good quality American Made" vs. "low quality IMPORT" kinda deal. Lots of very low quality tools were made here in the good 'ole US of A, as well as any other country. High quality tools are made wherever low quality tools are made, so the debate is really a non-starter if you think about it.
Some of my tools are German made and excellent, but I'll wager some pretty crappy stuff was made in Germany as well over the years. The best Lineman's I've ever laid hands upon are made in Germany and carried at Lowe's along with about every imaginable variation of these classic electrical work pliers. The great ones are $50, the cheapest comes in a kit made to hit a $10-$20 price point before Memorial Day/Father's Day/Labor Day/BLACK Friday/Christmas, etc., and then blown out at about half that right after.
@ ianj: overdrive 5-Speeds 4evAH! :approve: SLUSHBOXEN!!!
It's more of an "good quality American Made" vs. "low quality IMPORT" kinda deal. Lots of very low quality tools were made here in the good 'ole US of A, as well as any other country. High quality tools are made wherever low quality tools are made, so the debate is really a non-starter if you think about it.
Some of my tools are German made and excellent, but I'll wager some pretty crappy stuff was made in Germany as well over the years. The best Lineman's I've ever laid hands upon are made in Germany and carried at Lowe's along with about every imaginable variation of these classic electrical work pliers. The great ones are $50, the cheapest comes in a kit made to hit a $10-$20 price point before Memorial Day/Father's Day/Labor Day/BLACK Friday/Christmas, etc., and then blown out at about half that right after.
@ ianj: overdrive 5-Speeds 4evAH! :approve: SLUSHBOXEN!!!
