Struggling with Performa 6360--need help

[mloret]

Hey guys,

I decided to wave the white flag and ask for help with this Performa 6360 that I recently picked up on Fleabay (I know, I know, I'm regretting it)

So the computer chimes when I power it on and the HDD works fine. However, the floppy and CD player were unresponsive. When I tried to boot from my BlueSCSI (I tried two different ones), I would get to the screen right before the Finder logo and it would just hang up there. The pointer moves so it isn't frozen, but won't get past that point. I decided to try to pop the logic board in my Performa 6300 to see if it would run and there it did nothing. It powered on, but no pointer, no hum of the hard drive nothing. During the process of switching out the logic boards, I noticed that a cap had previously burned up. Interesting. So I ordered a new cap. Nope, wrong size. I rigged a through whole with the correct ratings and gave it a shot. Nope, same behavior. HDD works fine, no CD drive, and I cant boot from BlueSCSI. Incidentally, my BlueSCSI's are the only SCSI devices I own.

So what should I do now? I'm ready to pitch it out the window. Should I recap the entire board and hope for a different result? Because the CD drive isn't doing anything at all, I suspect a power issue but who knows. Any help is appreciated.

 

[Phipli]

Performa 6300 to see if it would run and there it did nothing. It powered on, but no pointer, no hum of the hard drive nothing

Careful! The connector pinout isn't the same. This way... should be OK? I think you end up just not powering the 3.3v? But always check compatibility before swapping boards.

 

[Phipli]

Hey guys,

I decided to wave the white flag and ask for help with this Performa 6360 that I recently picked up on Fleabay (I know, I know, I'm regretting it)

So the computer chimes when I power it on and the HDD works fine. However, the floppy and CD player were unresponsive. When I tried to boot from my BlueSCSI (I tried two different ones), I would get to the screen right before the Finder logo and it would just hang up there. The pointer moves so it isn't frozen, but won't get past that point. I decided to try to pop the logic board in my Performa 6300 to see if it would run and there it did nothing. It powered on, but no pointer, no hum of the hard drive nothing. During the process of switching out the logic boards, I noticed that a cap had previously burned up. Interesting. So I ordered a new cap. Nope, wrong size. I rigged a through whole with the correct ratings and gave it a shot. Nope, same behavior. HDD works fine, no CD drive, and I cant boot from BlueSCSI. Incidentally, my BlueSCSI's are the only SCSI devices I own.

So what should I do now? I'm ready to pitch it out the window. Should I recap the entire board and hope for a different result? Because the CD drive isn't doing anything at all, I suspect a power issue but who knows. Any help is appreciated.

Can you share a photo of the area around the battery? I had a 630 with SCSI issues due to a leaking battery.

Another thing to check is for bent pins on the edge connector.

Does the IDE hard disk in your 6200 or 6300 work? Can you swap it into the 6360?

 

[mloret]

Careful! The connector pinout isn't the same. This way... should be OK? I think you end up just not powering the 3.3v? But always check compatibility before swapping boards.

I thought they were compatible. No?

 

[mloret]

I replaced the battery but that area looks fine. Edge connector also looks fine. I cleaned it with IPA.

I just sold the 6300 so I can’t use that for testing purposes any more.

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

From what I've heard, BlueSCSI V1s can be finicky on certain systems. I know you don't have another SCSI device, but I'd recommend picking one up, either a ZuluSCSI or an V2 BlueSCSI. The V1 design has a few known flaws, and I know the termination system it uses can be pretty hit-or-miss.

Do you have a spare floppy drive? These should use the same ones other macs use, right? The CD drive being dead is plausible enough, from what I've heard, they are far from the most reliable models made.

 

[Phipli]

I thought they were compatible. No?

The 6360 uses a 6400 style board. These replaced the LCPDS style expansion with PCI. PCI needs 3.3v which wasn't previously needed on the 6200 and 6300. This means the 6360 has a different edge connector pinout to the 6300. They can be /modified/ to work, but they are not electrically compatible.

I believe @pizzigri has recently done the conversion so will have a far better understanding than me.

 

[mloret]

The 6360 uses a 6400 style board. These replaced the LCPDS style expansion with PCI. PCI needs 3.3v which wasn't previously needed on the 6200 and 6300. This means the 6360 has a different edge connector pinout to the 6300. They can be /modified/ to work, but they are not electrically compatible.

I believe @pizzigri has recently done the conversion so will have a far better understanding than me.

AHHH. Well I learned something.

So based on what @3lectr1cPPC said, I'm wondering if I need to try another SCSI device. I don't own one, but I could pick one up.

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

Both the zuluscsi and v2 bluescsi are much faster than the v1, so that's a benefit too.

 

[mloret]

Both the zuluscsi and v2 bluescsi are much faster than the v1, so that's a benefit too.

There isn’t much on YouTube for bluescsi v2. Is it easy to assemble? You have one, right?

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

I don't have either. I've got an F4Lite (based on V1) BlueSCSI internally in my PowerBook 180c and an external PiSCSI (highly recommended for external file transfer, but Raspberry Pi devices are crazy expensive right now).
The V2 is essentially a clone of the ZuluSCSI. It should work about as well, and the price is a little lower, but I'd still like to support the ZuluSCSI folks if I can next time I'm in the market for one, as they did most of the designing. Both have kit options but it's mostly surface mount parts, so the only stuff you get to install are the SCSI connector and a couple headers I think if you get a ZuluSCSI kit. The BlueSCSI V2 uses a dev module (like the V1 did) for the RP2040 microcontroller, so if you get a kit for that, you get to solder that one too.

 

[macuserman]

I'd still like to support the ZuluSCSI folks if I can next time I'm in the market for one, as they did most of the designing.

And I'd like to add in my experience that Rabbithole is very responsive as well to fixing issues with FW if they arise. Also if there is an issue, it's likely to get fixed in Zulu FW first then pulled into bluescsi branch later, although I'm sure the BlueScsi folks would like to tell you they are fully independent now I'm guessing they will gladly/shamelessly suck over any updates made to to the Zulu branch.

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

I've said this before but as someone who pretty much exclusively collects laptops, $70 vs $35 for a SSD device is a massive difference. I'll definitely go exclusively ZuluSCSI if they can get the kit prices down to at least $50 for those, I never understood why the PowerBook versions of RHC's adapters were always more expensive than the desktop versions, the reverse has been true with BlueSCSI. I need to pick something up for my PowerBook 170 soon, but it won't be until late june at the earliest so there's time.

 

[Fizzbinn]

And I'd like to add in my experience that Rabbithole is very responsive as well to fixing issues with FW if they arise. Also if there is an issue, it's likely to get fixed in Zulu FW first then pulled into bluescsi branch later, although I'm sure the BlueScsi folks would like to tell you they are fully independent now I'm guessing they will gladly/shamelessly suck over any updates made to to the Zulu branch.

I've found the BlueSCSI folks very responsive as well, especially via Discord. I'm probably going to regret stepping in this but I'm not sure I understand why there has to be ongoing animosity here. Haven't these projects built off each other's open source work? Didn't ZuluSCSI pull in the image management parts of BlueSCSI (a huge improvement over the way SCSI2SD worked)? BlueSCSI v2 seems to have unique features developed for it, i.e. its not just a plain copy of the ZuluSCSI software. On the hardware my understanding is BlueSCSI v2 boards are original open hardware designs anyone can build (if not sell), not a copy of the ZuluSCSI RP2040 boards. I've said it before but can't we just enjoy the great options we have due to the great work both these project have done?

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

Yeah that's about right. Alex from RHC says that BlueSCSI didn't do crediting correctly but I'm honestly not well versed in this stuff. The big thing is just that the BlueSCSI lead Eric and Alex from RHC seem to have personal issues between them. I'm honestly not against either side.
Unfortunately I don't see a good way of getting dialog going between both sides here as Eric quit posting here due to a couple people being quite rude to him, and I don't think Alex hangs out much on TinkerDifferent.

 

[Fizzbinn]

So based on what @3lectr1cPPC said, I'm wondering if I need to try another SCSI device. I don't own one, but I could pick one up.

Looks like I'm pretty close to you and have a working 6360 I could use to test your board. Interested?

There isn’t much on YouTube for bluescsi v2. Is it easy to assemble? You have one, right?

BlueSCSI - A hardware SCSI HDD & CD-ROM emulator

BlueSCSI is a SCSI computer storage emulation platform, which speaks both SCSI-1 and SCSI-2. It pioneered the use of file-based SCSI HDD & CD-ROM images. It is opensource and built by a community of makers, and you!

bluescsi.com

You can buy kits or preassembled, v2 kits don't look like they'd be any harder than v1 to assemble as they have all the surface mount stuff done.

 

[Fizzbinn]

Yeah that's about right. Alex from RHC says that BlueSCSI didn't do crediting correctly but I'm honestly not well versed in this stuff. The big thing is just that the BlueSCSI lead Eric and Alex from RHC seem to have personal issues between them. I'm honestly not against either side.
Unfortunately I don't see a good way of getting dialog going between both sides here as Eric quit posting here due to a couple people being quite rude to him, and I don't think Alex hangs out much on TinkerDifferent.

Yeah, it's really unfortunate, these guys are clearly talented and have given the community a lot.

 

[pizzigri]

Hey Mloret,
yeah I've modded a 6200 machine to host a 6500 LB... the 6360 uses the same edge connector as all 630 based machines all the way to the 6500/5500. What is different is the power connector, and the voltages passing through the individual wires - and also the service connector that is used to provide the additional voltages. i.e. VSB 5V, -12 etc.
The problem is you can both damage the board and PSU, as Phipli pointed out, the 6360 onwards include PCI and therefore a 3.3V rail. This rail has been implemented in place of a GND wire, therefore you get a dead short on the board!
You CAN try a a previous board in a 6360 machne, by placing Kapton tape over the pins that carry the 3.3V to the LB. Refer to the image below.
take care to isolate only the third pin from the right looking at tbe board from the front, and isolate the same pin on the other side of the connector.

 

[mloret]

Actually what I tried was slotting the 6360 into the 6300 but it didn’t work. I guess we know why. Someone from discord recommended I do that : /

 

[mloret]

Okay so yesterday I checked the SCSI fuse and that seemed okay. I also checked to see that pin 25 of the DB25 (termination power) was sending 5V and it was. So what I have done is purchased a known GOOD board for a 6360. I am awaiting shipment. Should that fail, I also bought a Zuluscsi from @Skate323k137. That should help me rule out the BLueSCSI. So if neither the board swap NOR the ZuluSCSI get this thing to recognized a SCSI device at DB25, what is the next troubleshooting step? I mean, other than landfill?