Socketed vs Soldered ... Fight!

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Um . . . not really. :-/

 

[uniserver]

Well hey, If there is no difference then my buddy mcdermd is 5 bucks richer, no harm done.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Yep, and that's about as cheap a credit hour as you're likely to buy. Now, for review, re-read all the opposing commentary, mull it over a bit and . . .

 

[uniserver]

Na, I don't listen as trag said... Also as he said, carry on, And that i am pretty much wrong about everything.

When I am curious about stuff i find out! That means experiment, test, ask what might be considered by some of you as " stupid ass questions "...

However as even you said (jt) just now in the Cap thread, no question is a stupid question.

I am just a do'er, get er dun kinda guy.

The things that I know how to do, I do them well. The rest is google or questions 101.

Just don't get snippy with me. I'm just average joe plumbing store IT guy.

i like your credit hour ref, i paid nothing for my College, GM paid for it all...

 

[Gorgonops]

edit: the Toothy/Nasty/Dinocerous is spot on once again, BTW . . . just give it up already. :
Cut him some slack, he kinda grows on ya once you get past that snarling, nasty, scaly carnivorous outer shell. He's really just a big teddy bear that kicks the stuffing outta' nonsensical crap like this whenever it pops up.

I saw an earlier edit of this particular post, but not quickly enough. I'm really disappointed I missed whatever a certain someone said about me.

Off Topic:

Uniserver, dude, if it will help you keep your language/blood pressure under control rest assured at this point if I reply to one of your threads I'm not talking to you, nor do I have any "personal problem" with you. (I'm sure you have your good points despite clearly having some major gaps in your scientific education and an unfortunate tendency to fling infantile insults.) I'm well aware of exactly how useful it is to waste your breath arguing with crazy, I was just attempting to educate the innocent bystanders. And if you don't like the fact that I've put you into the "crazy" category just remember: it's you who painted the picture I'm judging you by and it's the same one that everyone else sees. If you choose to keep staking your credibility on gut feelings and "attractive notions" which have no basis in reality eventually everyone's going to drop you into that same bucket.

(Mods: If you feel this needs to be deleted, go for it. I apologize ahead of time.)

 

[uniserver]

lol save it.

talk to some one who cares, it aint me or my less then 5 dollar a credit hour education

 

[tt]

Thanks gorgonops, I appreciate your comments. BTW, I don't know about gorgonops, but I am not a huge fan of Three's Company (I caught the post before it was edited and you are not missing much).

 

[uniserver]

it was good... I laughed so dam hard, it was good times.

love it.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Three's Company was pretty good TV, but I liked the blonde better back when she just kept her mouth shut and drove the T-Bird around with an air of mystery. [)] ]'>

As for all the gooshy stuff, mud fights, cat slinging and tomfoolery . . .

. . . toss uniserver into another class, my crazy bucket runneth over already around here!

 

[uniserver]

lol more insults. thanks!

Yup, third class here I come.

Have a nice night )

 

[mcdermd]

Nice Lucas ref, jt.

 

[James1095]

This is digital logic, ones and zeros, not some esoteric analog or RF circuit. Either it works or it doesn't, period. The CPU is driven by a clock oscillator and executes instructions and transfers data in lockstep with the oscillator. Apples to apples (excuse the pun) the *only* variable affecting the speed of the CPU is the clock speed. Bad connections may cause the system to be flaky and suffer random glitches and crashes, but if everything is in good enough shape to run reliably, it will run just as fast as if everything was made of fancy gold plated oxygen free copper and whatever other ridiculously expensive exotic materials you could find.

 

[techknight]

LOL... what a trainwreck. I LOVE IT.

But Even though this isnt analog or RF, and its digital, at breakneck speeds circuit lengths still become an issue. Even though its only 1s and 0s, The transition between 1 to 0, and 0 to 1 still fall into the "analog" domain. And CMOS/TTL have their own properties on which either state is recognized. So the less time the transition is spent in the undefined gray area, the better off you are. Therefore, if the rise-time or fall-time is grossly out the window, strange things happen. Now granted, the discussion about socketed/non-socketed CPUs at the SE/30 clock speeds, it doesnt matter... The clock is too slow even for the longest mess of a trainwreck wire to even matter. So my argument is moot.

But hypothetically when you start operating at clock speeds at the several hundred Mhz, those "wires" and their lengths and parasitic capacitive loading start coming into play, If the circuit trace or pin is too capacitive loaded it could cause race conditions in a parallel signal getting from A to B. And at even higher speeds, parasitic inductance start putting glitches on the line. Thats even worse....

Which is why if you look at modern motherboards, speed critical circuits are meandered to have equal lengths between A and B across all data lines.

For example if you purposely start introducing glitching in a microprocessor, your playing on these properties of electronics as i explained above. Allowing you to arbitrarily take control over an embedded/secured circuit. But when unexpected, it causes crashes as someone previously stated.

 

[uniserver]

I'm sticking to my original guess that the socketed se/30 is going to preform better even if by a small margin, in benchmarks.

Seriously though I'm really quite curious to see the benchmark results.

Looking more closely at the 2 different boards, I notice some differences. My hunch is, more changed then just the package,

Pretty sure the MMU on there too? It is an 030 after all. There is a alot going on in that little piece of silicon.

So place your bets!

 

[James1095]

But Even though this isnt analog or RF, and its digital, at breakneck speeds circuit lengths still become an issue. Even though its only 1s and 0s, The transition between 1 to 0, and 0 to 1 still fall into the "analog" domain. And CMOS/TTL have their own properties on which either state is recognized. So the less time the transition is spent in the undefined gray area, the better off you are. Therefore, if the rise-time or fall-time is grossly out the window, strange things happen. Now granted, the discussion about socketed/non-socketed CPUs at the SE/30 clock speeds, it doesnt matter... The clock is too slow even for the longest mess of a trainwreck wire to even matter. So my argument is moot.
But hypothetically when you start operating at clock speeds at the several hundred Mhz, those "wires" and their lengths and parasitic capacitive loading start coming into play, If the circuit trace or pin is too capacitive loaded it could cause race conditions in a parallel signal getting from A to B. And at even higher speeds, parasitic inductance start putting glitches on the line. Thats even worse....

Which is why if you look at modern motherboards, speed critical circuits are meandered to have equal lengths between A and B across all data lines.

While that's absolutely true, it's also a fact that a poorly laid out motherboard or one with bad connections will not run any slower. Either it is electrically "good enough" or it will be flaky and unreliable if it runs at all. It will *not* run more slowly unless you clock it at a lower speed, period. I see discussions like this crop up all the time in audiophool circles. You can instantly identify the engineers and the guys for whom the technical side is some sort of black magic.

As others have stated, there will likely be performance differences from one board to another, but they will be due to firmware and clock speed variation, nothing relating to whether the CPU is in a socket or not. Likewise the speed of the RAM has no impact whatsoever on performance. Either it's fast enough to perform reliably at the speed it's being clocked at, or it will cause the system to be flaky.

 

[Gorgonops]

You can instantly identify the engineers and the guys for whom the technical side is some sort of black magic.

Consarnit, I sees you there talkin' yer high-falutin' book-learnin' but all I hear is "blaw blaw blaw words words libtarded words prepping free hydrogen those blast points TOO ACCURATE FOR SANDPEOPLE! blawblawblaw."

There is *one* thing I suppose you could toss out there, about the "if there is a variance..." hook: Ocassionally when bugs which affect the stability of a given model of computer are discovered which are due to sloppy or over-ambitious timing the quickest solution is usually to make changes which intentionally slow down the machine, such as inserting wait states or modifying a software driver. (The Commodore 64's serial port is the poster child for "fix it by making it slower" engineering.) So if this stupid argument is actually about whether an older SE/30 motherboard (and here I'm assuming that the older boards are the socketed ones) just might do something faster than a newer one then it's remotely possible... but as has been repeated many, many, MANY times the result will have absolutely nothing to do with the CPU being socketed. The obvious tradeoff for that tiny bit of extra speed is having a machine that's susceptable to whatever crash bug the engineering change was made to prevent.

Of course, a even later engineering change might fix the problem and improve the firmware so the newest machines perform even better than the original buggy versions...

. . . toss uniserver into another class, my crazy bucket runneth over already around here!

*snicker* There's multiple kinds of crazy, Trash. Don't worry, you've got your own cool bucket. }

Thanks gorgonops, I appreciate your comments. BTW, I don't know about gorgonops, but I am not a huge fan of Three's Company (I caught the post before it was edited and you are not missing much).

Aaaah, Three's Company. I can't think of a finer source of intellectual banter than that.

I have this long boring story about how watching "Three's Company" during my formative years prompted a revalation that basically cured me of the desire to watch sitcoms, but to keep it short... ever seen the South Park Episode where they regularly call out that the "Simpsons Did it!"? Three's Company did it *way* before the Simpsons did. (Granted, Lucy or the Honeymooners did a lot of it first, but Three's Company filled out the "Sexual Innuendo" plot category that was verboten before the 1970s.)

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Thanks for the kind thoughts, G, but this five gallon dough pail is getting a bit constraining. Maybe you could drum up a 55 gallon container? That would give me an order of magnitude more elbow room and 5 gallons of volume left over for padding . . .

. . . If you reinstalled the lid without the plugs I could still breathe and less crazy would leak out the top! )

Dollars to doughnuts, if it's original to the Video Production Studio, Ernie Kovacs did it first!

 

[AichEss]

Good grief.

Run the bleeping test already. Just do it before someone has an electronic stroke (or maybe a real one for some of the more ... ah ... emotionally committed ... posters)

The quality of the thread has deteriorated as the "discussion" progressed. What comes next after cow patties?

 

[markyb86]

What comes next after cow patties?

High school lunch "BBQ beef" sandwich.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Cow pies for dessert?

p.s. this thread can't possibly reach lows beneath the IP, so's we're doing out best to smoosh it around the plate without ingesting it seriously.

p.s. thread devolution has a long and colorful history here . . . at least in the forum archives anyway . . .

. . . lately this place has gotten a bit too stuffy by comparison . . . too much parade ground spit and polish . . .

. . . and not nearly enough playing out in the mud with the troops . . . IMO, of course. :rambo: