Quadra 800

[sunaiac]

Hello,

new member here. In my conquest of all the As (Amiga, Atari, Acorn, Apple, Amstrad), I got what could be on paper one of the Macintoshes the most interesting for me : a Q800.

Why interesting ?
- I wanted a 68040 based computer, it has one. (I already have several 68000s (ST/E 520, A500), a 68020 (A1200), a castrated 68030 (Falcon), a full 68030 (A500+TF536), a 68060 (falcon CT63). The 040 was sadly missing :S)
- It has the level of power I'm most used to (grew up with a 486sx33)(The other power level I'd like is something like a 8500/180 I guess)
- It plays the games of my childhood
- It looks good
- It's reasonably expansible
- It's uncommon
- It's probably the second fastest 040 computer ever made ...
- ... but unlike the 840AV I found it and it has solid capacitors too !

Anyways, here is the beast, my first mac ever :


It runs.
Here is the setup when bought :
- 36MB RAM
- 230MB original HDD
- and that's pretty much it.
The screen I got with it is a multiple scan 15.

I brought it back home, and let my daughter play Shufflepuck café which I found in some corner of the Hard drive. The HDD died after 1 hour of use.
So I opened it and first dealt with that :



No damage to the MB so good save, just in time ! Here she is :


I bought a zulu SCSI compact RP2040, and cleaned the keyboard. I found some 16MB sticks in my memory box. I have a CDROM drive incoming, as well as a midiman macman mini, a asante friendlynet AUII RJ transeiver, and need to find something like a BeigeATX PSU adapter or recap the original one.



On the software side, I found a copy of 8.0, and it came with the original floppies for 7.1. Also bought a few games (civ, simcity 2k)(yes I know about macintosh garden ). I tried OS 7.6, found it too slow, so I went back to 7.5.5 without even trying 8.X. Might do later. Since I'm a new mac user, I take time to discover things. For example I tried to get shufflepuck café to work again for 2 hours with several OS reinstalls before understanding that it probably tries to modify code in the cache and crashes unless the L1 is deactivated. I also need to find a new battery because setting the memory to 32 bits and the mouse to fast at each startup is getting annoying.

Target setup :
- 40MHz CPU (Spicy O'clock ?)
- 72 MB RAM
- 2GB zuluSCSI partitions
- AppleCD 600i
- Asanté friendlyNet
- Midiman macman mini + Roland SC-88
- VGA adapter to OSSC to LCD (67/75hz are nice but I'm getting older)
- many games

So far I'm negatively impressed with game performance (simcity and slow games are fine but fullscreen animation ones such as doom are...not. I've started reading the development books, I understand why it's never gonna be a 320x200 ModeX beast, but I think doom has some margin for improvement ), I find the OS fine and I really like the machine itself.

That's it for the introduction

 

[sunaiac]

Which brings me to my first question, well the first one I've not found an answer by myself.
I'm gonna receive a 600i soon so I printed the bezel models found on this forum:


But the part where the eject button attaches doesn't fit the case because of the white plastic crossmember thingy :


I don't get how that's supposed to work for a tray drive such as the 600i. Is that white part supposed to be cut !?

Thanks

 

[Snial]

Looks great! I don't know what your MIDI software prefs are, but you should find that Micrologic fun is as capable as an early version of Cubase and is genuinely free (as it was distributed on a MacFormat magazine CD and I asked the head of Apple Logic development, an old Micrologic developer if I could redistribute it and he said it was OK):

https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/micrologic-fun-404b

I've used it a bit!

-cheers from Julz

 

[sunaiac]

Err my favourite midi software are Doom and Simcity2000
I'm unable to produce music

 

[Melkhior]

new member here.

Welcome!

I got what could be on paper one of the Macintoshes the most interesting for me : a Q800.

Congratulations, it's a very nice machine and it looks to be in excellent shape.
The Wombat-based systems (so Q800, Q640, C650) are also in my opinion the best 68kMac you can get.

- It's probably the second fastest 040 computer ever made ...

I'm going to be a pedant (and show off my newfound knowledge), and say nope. At least two companies (Arix and Concurrent Computer Corp) made 68040-based SMP system running some custom Unix. Those are likely to be the fastest, unless some other companies made something even bigger that left no traces (I was investigating the feasibility of a SMP 68k system, because why not).

So far I'm negatively impressed with game performance (simcity and slow games are fine but fullscreen animation ones such as doom are...not. I've started reading the development books, I understand why it's never gonna be a 320x200 ModeX beast, but I think doom has some margin for improvement ), I find the OS fine and I really like the machine itself.

Macs never had the fast, low-resolution mode of contemporary PCs. Pushing a large numbers of pixels at decent depth (8 bits or more) takes a lot of time. Don't expect miracle :-/ Good for static images and various kind of work, not so much for animated stuff like first-person shooters. The flipside is they were designed well enough to support much larger resolution even in an era where that was not commercially viable - I don't think a pre-PCI PC could support (or use) a full HD display. Macs can

 

[cheesestraws]

but I think doom has some margin for improvement

The Doom port is famously not very good - but yes, these machines are really optimised for colour depth and resolution, rather than frame rate, as @Melkhior says.

Wombats are really solid machines though, you made a good choice.

(Also what's your Acorn?)

 

[Phipli]

Welcome

For example I tried to get shufflepuck café to work again for 2 hours with several OS reinstalls before understanding that it probably tries to modify code in the cache and crashes unless the L1 is deactivated

There is a control panel that lets you switch the cache mode on 040 Macs which might help, but an even more common issue with old games can be that they're designed to operate in 24bit memory mode. If you go to the Memory control panel, you should be able to turn off 32bit addressing. With 32bit addressing turned off you'll be limited to 8MB of RAM, but that will be plenty to run Shufflepuck cafe.

BeigeATX PSU adapter

GitHub - GeorgeRudolf/OldMacATX: ATX Adapter for IIcx, IIci, (IIsi?), IIvx, IIvi, P600, C/Q650, Q800, PM7100

ATX Adapter for IIcx, IIci, (IIsi?), IIvx, IIvi, P600, C/Q650, Q800, PM7100 - GeorgeRudolf/OldMacATX

github.com

I also need to find a new battery because setting the memory to 32 bits and the mouse to fast at each startup is getting annoying.

You want either an LS14250, or better, something like this which is less likely to leak : https://www.tindie.com/products/siliconinsider/macbatt-cr2032-pram-apple-macintosh-battery/

40MHz CPU (Spicy O'clock ?)

I have some hints and tips for this. There are actually 40MHz timings in the ROM. You still need to increase the system clock, but if you switch to the 40MHz timings the computer runs more reliably than a pure overclock.

Asanté friendlyNet

Or any other AAUI to 10baseT adapter?

VGA adapter to OSSC to LCD (67/75hz are nice but I'm getting older)

You could just use a apple RGB to VGA adapter and a VGA LCD? Is the a reason you want other stuff specifically?

I don't get how that's supposed to work for a tray drive such as the 600i. Is that white part supposed to be cut !?

The white bar isn't in the way, I think you have the bezel held too low. It should be flush with the top like this :

 

[cheesestraws]

Or any other AAUI to 10baseT adapter?

Yeah, that's a good point - you've got loads of options for AAUI dongles, they're all compatible

 

[eharmon]

Heck yeah. I came here to give you some tips but I think I've been beaten by all the usual suspects

So I'll just say that's a nice machine, and welcome to the Wombat club.

 

[joshc]

So far I'm negatively impressed with game performance

Try stuff that wasn’t so PC oriented and also avoid 3D stuff.

There was a small albeit popular Mac specific market of games back then; some typical favourites are Glider, F/A Hornet, Tetris Max, anything made by Ambrosia (Escape Velocity, Maelstrom, Aperion, Pathways into Darkness, Glypha. I’m probably forgetting hundreds that I should mention here. Realmz and Monkey Shines too.

Blizzard was good with Mac support, so Warcraft I should play well. And try SimCity Classic rather than 2000.

Wolfenstein 3D should work better than DOOM.

All of these are available on the Mac Garden website.

 

[sunaiac]

Thanks all for the warm welcome

Surprised by doom's performance I've check other games. Wolfenstein is somehow worse, dark forces better I've read the tricks of mac game programming gurus, the black art of mac game programming and sex, lies and Video games to understand a bit. I actually had no idea lower resolutions than 640 weren't possible, that there's no way to get the vblank and "race the beam" and that you cannot double-buffer in VRAM so everything has to be an offscreen buffer + copy, that explained a lot haha. That's fine, I'll still have a bit of coding fun, and I'll play doom on some other system (or not !)

Plus I actually probably overestimate how smooth doom actually was on my sx 33, helped by rose tinted nostalgia glasses. Have to check. I've been benching so many Athlons or even K5s/Pentium pros that I may be mixing things up !

But that's just "full screen each frame redraw" stuff (and at least as much the fault of the port). SimCity 2000, warcraft, civilization, all that works like a charm ! (Except I didn't realize that Warcraft didn't use midi music on the mac and I can't CD-audio from the zuluSCSI so I'll have to wait for the CD drive to arrive to get music )

Welcome

There is a control panel that lets you switch the cache mode on 040 Macs which might help, but an even more common issue with old games can be that they're designed to operate in 24bit memory mode. If you go to the Memory control panel, you should be able to turn off 32bit addressing. With 32bit addressing turned off you'll be limited to 8MB of RAM, but that will be plenty to run Shufflepuck cafe.

Yes, sorry should have mentioned that I had found the solution. Somehow the first 7.5.5 image I got from the net did not have that control panel so I lost quite some time (total noob was noobing !). When doing a clean reinstall on bazilisk with "wish I were" set to Q800 I suddenly had that panel and abracadabra, shufflepuck works and daughter is happy

https://github.com/GeorgeRudolf/OldMacATX

Yup, this is on my priority list. Might check the trade subforum to see if someone has one ready to sell. 30yo PSUs worry me.

You want either an LS14250, or better, something like this which is less likely to leak : https://www.tindie.com/products/siliconinsider/macbatt-cr2032-pram-apple-macintosh-battery/

Had no idea that existed thank you for the tip ! I definitely want something like that
On the shopping list it goes !

I have some hints and tips for this. There are actually 40MHz timings in the ROM. You still need to increase the system clock, but if you switch to the 40MHz timings the computer runs more reliably than a pure overclock.

I am very interested.
I saw that there are rom simms, I guess I should buy one preflashed with the right roms ? Or is there a way to get the timings already in the rom by some other mean ?
They relax some memory timings ?
I spoke of Spicy O'clock because it's cool but I might simply socket a 20MHz quartz. I'm not after 42+ MHz, I want to stability/reliability (and well 40MHz)

Or any other AAUI to 10baseT adapter?

Absolutely, I put the one in my "target list" because one is on its way here (here being France), I found it for good price on eBay. I chose this solution over a nubus card because it looks to be more common/easier to find, more practical and also ... well, cheaper.

You could just use a apple RGB to VGA adapter and a VGA LCD? Is the a reason you want other stuff specifically?

You mean the OSSC ? I already have one, and It's very good usually. I'm also running short on VGA screens with the ataris and amigas. But nothing is set in stone, my computers come and go on the available screens

The white bar isn't in the way, I think you have the bezel held too low. It should be flush with the top like this :

View attachment 68363

I think I was in the right place, because the side clips were aligned.
Here are pictures that more clearly show the problem. Does your bezel have the same eject system ? (https://www.myminifactory.com/objec...uadra-800-840av-powermac-8100-8500-9500-80291)

 

[sunaiac]

Try stuff that wasn’t so PC oriented and also avoid 3D stuff.

There was a small albeit popular Mac specific market of games back then; some typical favourites are Glider, F/A Hornet, Tetris Max, anything made by Ambrosia (Escape Velocity, Maelstrom, Aperion, Pathways into Darkness, Glypha. I’m probably forgetting hundreds that I should mention here. Realmz and Monkey Shines too.

Blizzard was good with Mac support, so Warcraft I should play well. And try SimCity Classic rather than 2000.

Wolfenstein 3D should work better than DOOM.

All of these are available on the Mac Garden website.

Will try all that, thanks.
(Wolf3d is worst than doom being close to walls/doors slow down to a crawl )

 

[Phipli]

I saw that there are rom simms, I guess I should buy one preflashed with the right roms ? Or is there a way to get the timings already in the rom by some other mean ?

The onboard ROM supports multiple computers and speeds - you can select the number of wait states with resistor settings on the board. That ROM supports your board at 20, 25, 33 and 40 MHz. There is even an optional jumper that when fitted lets you select between 33 and 40 MHz timings without needing to do any soldering or even remove the board.

They relax some memory timings ?

Sort of - more keep things constant so you aren't exceeding the specification of the RAM and Video systems as the CPU runs routines faster at higher clocks.

I spoke of Spicy O'clock because it's cool but I might simply socket a 20MHz quartz. I'm not after 42+ MHz, I want to stability/reliability (and well 40MHz)

I fitted a home made adapter to mine so I have a DIP14 socket to fit standard clocks. Let's me just swap bus speeds quickly (combined with the jumper to switch timings).

I think I was in the right place, because the side clips were aligned.
Here are pictures that more clearly show the problem. Does your bezel have the same eject system ? (https://www.myminifactory.com/objec...uadra-800-840av-powermac-8100-8500-9500-80291)

Strange, I haven't heard of this being an issue. Apple switched from caddy to tray CD drives during this era and I thought both fit in both. I don't have your exact computer, but three other machines in effectively the same case. Hopefully someone with your exact model can clarify.

@macuserman @joshc - are the bezels on the Quadra 800 different?

Wolfenstein 3D should work better than DOOM.

Or the original Marathon game.

When playing games, make sure you use 256 colours.

For the "best" 3D gaming experience though, a PowerPC upgrade "helps". They're common, but have gone expensive. You occasionally find one cheap though. You can toggle them on and off through software with a restart, so you can choose if you want the 040 or PPC601 experience. When running PPC, everything runs on the 601. This can cause slowdowns where older code is run in emulation, but the 3D games you're talking about all contain PowerPC code.

 

[joshc]

For later games / PPC stuff I usually recommend a G3 or G4 Power Mac, both are cheap and easy to find.

Some others I just thought of to try: SimAnt, Crystal Crazy, PegLeg, Spin Doctor, Super Maze Wars

 

[joshc]

@macuserman @joshc - are the bezels on the Quadra 800 different?

Don’t know, can’t remember, sorry. I’ve only ever briefly owned a Quadra 800 and 8200 and have tried to erase both from my memory as I hate the cases.

 

[Phipli]

For later games / PPC stuff I usually recommend a G3 or G4 Power Mac, both are cheap and easy to find.

Some others I just thought of to try: SimAnt, Crystal Crazy, PegLeg, Spin Doctor, Super Maze Wars

Mortal Kombat, Settlers II, Maelstrom, Spaceway 2000, Swoop, Escape Velocity, Myst, Arashi, Boom, Prince of Persia, Oxyd, Discworld...

 

[treellama]

(simcity and slow games are fine but fullscreen animation ones such as doom are...not. I've started reading the development books, I understand why it's never gonna be a 320x200 ModeX beast, but I think doom has some margin for improvement )

Marathon should be playable on very low settings

 

[macuserman]

Don’t know, can’t remember, sorry. I’ve only ever briefly owned a Quadra 800 and 8200 and have tried to erase both from my memory as I hate the case

@macuserman @joshc - are the bezels on the Quadra 800 different?

Yeah I too have never owned a Quadra 800, although I've a considerable collection of bezels and I've not encountered any that don't fit my 8100. I do have a faceplate for an 8100 if you are willing to have a mismatched machine, but if it was me I'd just cut the plastic and make the bezel you printed fit.

 

[sunaiac]

Marathon should be playable on very low settings

Marathon runs very well at 100% with half the lines disabled

Don’t know, can’t remember, sorry. I’ve only ever briefly owned a Quadra 800 and 8200 and have tried to erase both from my memory as I hate the cases.

Yeah I too have never owned a Quadra 800, although I've a considerable collection of bezels and I've not encountered any that don't fit my 8100. I do have a faceplate for an 8100 if you are willing to have a mismatched machine, but if it was me I'd just cut the plastic and make the bezel you printed fit.

Ok thanks. I'd rather not cut it right away, I probably prefer going bezel less to start
@Swolfington is the creator, maybe he can give me more information ?

Or maybe if I may be so bold, can anyone take a picture of the inside part of your bezels and case front so I can get an idea ?

 

[joshc]

(Wolf3d is worst than doom being close to walls/doors slow down to a crawl )

At what resolution? It's OK on my LC 475 but that's @ 45MHz (accelerated with a clone of a weird Formac accelerator although there's other ways to get those running faster).