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Project: PowerMac 6100 HPV Riser + HPV VRAM

demik

Well-known member
Since then I've fitted an HPV card to either a 6100 or a Pioneer MPC-GX1 (same thing, basically) and it just barely clears the hard drive with all of the VRAM sticks installed. However the VRAM SIMMs are extremely close to the processor's heat sink so they'll get hot, and you can't really use a fancy heat sink/fan combo on the processor, but maybe it would be a good idea to switch to one of the types used in the 9150 or 7200, available new (without the Peltier junction attached) as found by jessenator in another thread: 
Yeah the HPV SIMMs are extremely close to the CPU. Thanks for this information. Will add one of these on my next order.

Can I request a photo or the part number of you SIMMs and HPV ? I'm having trouble getting memory chips, even NOS. More references should help.

Regards

 

Daniël

Well-known member
Progress !

Here what's being done :

- Created a KiKad library for Apple Connectors

- Diagram done

- PCB Layout and routing done

- Bough enough component for a first batch of risers (using connector EDAC 302-182-520-900)

PCB routing was quite a mess. i'm pretty sure Apple risers are 4 layers, but managed to get it working with only 2 ! Auto routing gave up a couple of times (mostly ground and a few datelines, had to help him out a bit)

snip

Here is a render of what the board should look like:

snip

Everything should be home in 2-3 weeks, I will keep you updated !


Just curious, did you get these risers made, and if so, are you planning on selling any? I'm definitely interested in one, while I initially didn't want to spend a lot of cash on my rather poor condition 6100, I've slowly fallen into the trap of wanting to kit out yet another computer, and those HPV/AV cards aren't crazy expensive. Those risers are hard to find, so getting a freshly made one would be cool! 

 

demik

Well-known member
Just curious, did you get these risers made, and if so, are you planning on selling any? I'm definitely interested in one, while I initially didn't want to spend a lot of cash on my rather poor condition 6100, I've slowly fallen into the trap of wanting to kit out yet another computer, and those HPV/AV cards aren't crazy expensive. Those risers are hard to find, so getting a freshly made one would be cool! 


Thanks for your interest.

Yes I did. Covid didn't help so I only received everything last week. I made a mistake reading the connector datasheet, and so the hole size is wrong. Ordered a new batch with the correct size. This issue aside, it's fine (connector fir in motherboard properly, and the HPV card fit nicely in the sourced connector)

The design for the riser is open source so you will be able to :

- build one yourself from scratch

- build all the parts as a do it yourself kit. (price to be determined, but definitively under $30). I may be build them myself if there is demand.

 
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Daniël

Well-known member
Thanks for your interest.

Yes I did. Covid didn't help so I only received everything last week. I made a mistake reading the connector datasheet, and so the hole size is wrong. Ordered a new batch with the correct size. This issue aside, it's fine (connector fir in motherboard properly, and the HPV card fit nicely in the sourced connector)

The design for the riser is open source so you will be able to :

- build one yourself from scratch

- build all the parts as a do it yourself kit. (price to be determined, but definitively under $30). I may be build them myself if there is demand.


I saw that those connectors seem to only be for sale from Mouser, which is a bit pricey to buy from due to the shipping costs and import duties involved in US -> EU shipping, so it'd probably be a bit of an endeavour for me to get myself a whole batch of those and PCBs. Therefore, I'd definitely be interested in a DIY kit once you're ready and got a price to put on it.

 

demik

Well-known member
Hello there, figured I might post some update, even if it's bad news.

Got the new revision done, and everything fitted without issues.

5297092_HPV20Riser20r11.jpeg.2c33aa907100e2b24d597a4d79a009c4.jpeg


Thing is, while pluging in/removing the riser after a dozen tries, I bended about 20 pins and shorted the motherboard  :'(  While trying to unbend them, the plastic of the connector broke... Ended removing the broken slot without much issues. Removing 182 pins from the motherboard wasn't fun…

1221832419_PDS20broken20pins.jpeg.ea0e9d56bf2d41e11a2c5ef437ed7da0.jpeg


Next task : replace the PDS slot and get another board if that doesn't work... 

 

Daniël

Well-known member
What do you suppose caused the bending? Could it be that the new PCB is thicker than what the slot was designed to accept?

 

demik

Well-known member
What do you suppose caused the bending? Could it be that the new PCB is thicker than what the slot was designed to accept?
Two possible things :

- I probably pushed sideways (probably this, since it worked a few times without damaging the slot before)

- The HPV video card has a round "bottom" vs a square one for the bracket. However Cache and ROM both also have a square "bottom."

Otherwise, both PCB have the same thickness (0.062in / 1.57mm)

 

tafkar

Active member
I have a dead 6100 motherboard that I was going to send to the recycle store. If there is anything you want off it I would be glad to send it for the cost of shipping.

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
First, fantabulous progress! :approve: Agreed, wobbling the HPV card from side to side after or during direct insertion, coupled with that far out the side/badly supported logic board slot was probably your problem.

- The HPV video card has a round "bottom" vs a square one for the bracket. However Cache and ROM both also have a square "bottom."
HPV edge card teeth (as on mine) should be a sharp "V" profile for standard edge card connector insertion. ROM and Cache slots have guides for alignment during insertion and support thereafter. Expected ROM and Cache card life/cycle count would be under a handful for male and female, so the squared off profile is no problem. Edge card connectors in bus applications have other alignment systems, The NuBus backplane interface plate's slot and post socket setup of HPV is superior to the ISA method I'd think.

Right angle adapter riser cards in flat Macs seem pretty much the worst of all possible implementations, depending as they do on an adapter carrier aligning things at the bottom edge, or so it seems to me. Dunno, maybe it's better that way for slots hanging off the edge of the logic board?

Good luck fixing your board, at least you've the connector in hand! Watching that carefully as I need to do much the same to one of my IIsi boards, albeit on purpose.

 

demik

Well-known member
I have a dead 6100 motherboard that I was going to send to the recycle store. If there is anything you want off it I would be glad to send it for the cost of shipping.
That would be useful, just for testing insertions on an original slot. Do you take PayPal ? 

 

demik

Well-known member
HPV edge card teeth (as on mine) should be a sharp "V" profile for standard edge card connector insertion. ROM and Cache slots have guides for alignment during insertion and support thereafter. Expected ROM and Cache card life/cycle count would be under a handful for male and female, so the squared off profile is no problem. Edge card connectors in bus applications have other alignment systems, The NuBus backplane interface plate's slot and post socket setup of HPV is superior to the ISA method I'd think.

Right angle adapter riser cards in flat Macs seem pretty much the worst of all possible implementations, depending as they do on an adapter carrier aligning things at the bottom edge, or so it seems to me. Dunno, maybe it's better that way for slots hanging off the edge of the logic board?

Good luck fixing your board, at least you've the connector in hand! Watching that carefully as I need to do much the same to one of my IIsi boards, albeit on purpose.
Ha that's helpful, thanks ! I will make another revision with a V profile then. 

The 6100 motherboard is now alive again after cleaning some solder joints around the PDS slot. So there is hope :)  

 

tafkar

Active member
That would be useful, just for testing insertions on an original slot. Do you take PayPal ? 
I can do PayPal or Venmo. By the way, I have also been planning to sell my HPV or AV card, if you need another one of those.

 

demik

Well-known member
I can do PayPal or Venmo. By the way, I have also been planning to sell my HPV or AV card, if you need another one of those.
Nice ! I don't need another HPV card, but i'm sure someone will want one one this is finished.

Sending you a PM for postal address & stuff

 

demik

Well-known member
Rev 1.2 now in production :

- moved PCB edge connector up to make room for the "V" profile and increased pads size to be a little closer to the PCI spec.
- tightened DRC checks and corrected a few things 

- rerouted manually a few lines and removed a few Vias

 

Vindict6

New member
Fantastic work, Demik! I had jlcpcb manufacture five of your github versions. Unfortunately, like you, I suffered the loss of my slot and used one of the five card-edge slots to repair my 6100.

I made some modifications to the video card bracket with a dremel to shorten the hook. I also shortened the plastic hole that is on the back of the case with the remaining cutting disk I had left. The card hooked properly and I have video on an otherwise lifeless motherboard (The onboard slot is dead). Again, fantastic work, and good wishes! - VinSix












 
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demik

Well-known member
Hello ! Really good job, I'm impressed. You are faster than me, I don't have a working set yet  :)

How did you replace your PDS slot ? Do you now why it broke ? I'm waiting for others drill bits at the moment.

If you used Rev 1.2 then you have the last revision with improved routing and larger edge connector.

Once I get mine working (in December), I will start selling kit, maybe next year. You can sell yours first if you want, it's an OpenSource project after all.

Have a nice day.

Regards

 
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Vindict6

New member
Hey demik! The original slot seems "tighter" than it should be, so the slot pins seem to stick out a little too much on the top. I believe that they didn't really expect people to use the card slot modularly, but instead either populated from the factory or not. The riser pcb's card edge is also very square on my rendition. If you make the riser's card edge more sloped like a "V", this should prevent this from happening, or at least minimize the chances.

It's very kind of you to allow me to sell these. My only intention would be to assist other users since I don't need five, and not to turn a profit on your design. Have a good one, and thanks again!

 
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demik

Well-known member
Hello Folks,

Thanks to @cheesestraws providing additional hardware for the test, I did build two risers on my own successfully.

HPV%20Riser%20r12.jpeg


This works without issue, but the PDS on that new logic board was flakey as well. One of the pin was misaligned without even my trying to use it, and after a few try with a squared card edge, the pin broke and I had to remove it from the connector.

Fortunately it wasn't a pin used by the HPV Connector, but you never know. Here it is working.

HPV%20Riser%20r12%206100.jpg


Important note
If you build a riser for yourself, please make the card edge connector as a V or more rounded shape with a lime with small grain. I did this on two risers and the plug in on the PDS slot was noticeably easier to plug in.

The Video card need some sort of mechanical help, what @Vindict6 did is a good way to secure the card in place.
As from the VRAM, @Siliconinsider did such a good job with its Purple VRAMs that I suggest buying VRAM from him.

Everything needed to build this is available on GitHub : https://github.com/demik/oldworld/tree/master/EDA
 

macuserman

Well-known member
3431222D-8215-4A34-B3AE-3681CF204B75.jpegD6057D2A-3BC7-45B1-9181-BF14F06C1D23.jpeg1072BD79-2D6C-4DB5-9CAE-FB5D70CA8216.jpeg
On my card the lines are almost straight clearly showing one to one connections. Why are the traces on these replica boards so much less straight?
 

demik

Well-known member
Multiple things:
- I didn't even know this board existed and we started of a G3 Accelerator board.
- The board was mostly autorouted, and the beefier power / ground lines didn't help having straight stuff.

Where did you get this ?
 
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