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PPC G5 Halts, Panics, Crashes - heat related?

UltraNEO*

Active member
A little bird *very much in the know* once told me about a number of skeletons in the G5's closet, particularly the first generation (1.6-2.0Ghz) models, but that's about all I can say. It's probably just enough to warn anyone considering them that they're essentially exotic UNIX-workstation technology done on a shoestring budget. (At two grand-plus they may of seemed expensive, but a SUN Sparc machine in the same speed class would of been in the five figures.) And like anything done on a shoestring budget, there are... compromises.

Basically, they're the poster children for why Apple had to switch to Intel. Take that for what you will.
I had a 1.6 until recently... that thing was utter garbage. It was easily beaten (performance-wise) by a 1.5 GHz G4 PowerBook I used to have. Terrible, terrible desktop performance. It also had annoying fan issues and strange power supply noises.
OK.. mines not a 1.6. :p

But dude, considering this is like my sixth machine floating about the house, I won't be too arsed about it's lacking in performance.... I just want the stupid thing to work and not crash every so often. LOOL

You have to remember, for it's time and age, it used to be fairly powerful workhorse.. if not the most powerful consumer desktop. For the cost of the machine today, it has more horses under the hood than the latest MacBook Air.

 

techfury90

Well-known member
No, not really. The G5 was actually an atrocious chip, even by the day's standards. Even fast P4s were generally better, and that's saying something. I would be willing to bet that even just one core of a MacBook Air's C2D would be faster than that G5 I had. Hell, even my 1.5 G4 PowerBook was faster. Explain that one.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
In geekbench tests, the original macbook air (1.6GHz C2D) whups the pants off of all G5 systems except the dual2.7 and the dualdual2.5. This test is admittedly only of CPU and ram speed performance, and isn't necessarily indicative of the fact that even though there are no 64-bit apps for PPC macs, you could hypothetically cram sixteen gigs of ram into one of those faster G5s, or an nVidia GeFORCE 7800GT or whatever.

BTW, how has the ram swapping/testing been going?

After having read through this thread that's unfortunately the only thing I can think of in terms of what may be causing the system to be unstable, unless it really is just a faulty or mis-seated processor or other logic board component.

 

UltraNEO*

Active member
In geekbench tests, the original macbook air (1.6GHz C2D) whups the pants off of all G5 systems except the dual2.7 and the dualdual2.5. This test is admittedly only of CPU and ram speed performance, and isn't necessarily indicative of the fact that even though there are no 64-bit apps for PPC macs, you could hypothetically cram sixteen gigs of ram into one of those faster G5s, or an nVidia GeFORCE 7800GT or whatever.
BTW, how has the ram swapping/testing been going?

After having read through this thread that's unfortunately the only thing I can think of in terms of what may be causing the system to be unstable, unless it really is just a faulty or mis-seated processor or other logic board component.
The system's problem is really weird, for instance, I've had the machine up and running for days, almost a week even, and it's been fine... then restarting the machine booting into leopard will make it crash! xx( ... taking out the user upgraded (Kingston crap) seems to make the G5 systems more stable but slower...but it'll still misfire on occasions plus there's no LED warning light inside (unless i'm looking at the wrong place) but i'm not really sure right now. Would like some diagnostic software to prove it's... what's available?

 
In geekbench tests, the original macbook air (1.6GHz C2D) whups the pants off of all G5 systems except the dual2.7 and the dualdual2.5. This test is admittedly only of CPU and ram speed performance, and isn't necessarily indicative of the fact that even though there are no 64-bit apps for PPC macs, you could hypothetically cram sixteen gigs of ram into one of those faster G5s, or an nVidia GeFORCE 7800GT or whatever.
So you're saying there are no 64-bit Mac PPC apps at all ever made in the history of PPC Macs? WTF?

I think benchmarks are shit too, and they favor Intel Macs over PPC Macs somehow.

Everything is optimized for x86, many times more effort has been put into optimizing x86 compilers compared to PPC compilers. Imagine if the same effort was put into PPC compilers.

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
I think benchmarks are shit too, and they favor Intel Macs over PPC Macs somehow.
Everything is optimized for x86, many times more effort has been put into optimizing x86 compilers compared to PPC compilers. Imagine if the same effort was put into PPC compilers.
Legend says that one day a hero, True of Heart, shall seek and find the One True PowerPC Compiler and pull the installation DVD from the stone block in which it's embedded. Once this noble deed is achieved a New Age Of PPC Wonder shall dawn, and the world shall finally be cleansed of all sinful x86 wickedness. Rainbows will dance all day with the sun in the sky, and Unicorns and Care Bears will once again frolic with the My Little Ponies in our pastures. The rivers shall overflow with fish, the forests with game, and the fields with wheat and plenty. And Steve Jobs himself shall descend from the heavens and walk amongst mortals, enlightening them all with love, understanding, and shrewd marketing dogma forever and ever and ever. Amen.

It's amazing how thoroughly Apple managed to brainwash its customers with the "PowerPC is better" gospel. I'm sorry, but it just isn't true. There just isn't this huge conspiracy out there constantly working to make PowerPC CPUs suck at application benchmarks. (If anything, the infamous Photoshop benchmark suite that Apple used to advertise as showing that G4s were *so much faster* then Intel's Pentiums was heavily rigged.)

My take on the performance of the G5 from the time I had with one is that the CPU itself is a competent number cruncher. The 2.0Ghz Xserve was significantly faster per clock then the (P4-based) Xeon servers I had to compare it with on various UNIX-y floating point benchmarks. (The 2.0 G5 could edge out a 2.53 Ghz Xeon on most tests and came close to the 2.8s.) Also just for laffs I sic-ed it at SETI@home as well, and I recall it being able to churn out a work unit in a little under 3 hours on average while the Intel servers were more like four. (the exact times I'm a little fuzzy on, it's been a while.) These were all tests that measured the output of a single CPU. So when G5 is compared to P4/Netburst it comes off pretty well. However, the first time I tested an AMD Opteron it was close to a dead heat on the UNIX benchmarks and at SETI the Opteron could shave almost another half hour off the work unit time. The Opterons ran at basically the same clock, so... the G5 as a number cruncher is good by 2003 standards. Not "the best", but still pretty awesome. It's not 2003 anymore and the Intel Core series is better per clock then the Opteron, so the G5 is looking sort of mediocre now. But it *was* good.

The real problem with the G5 is it's a lousy desktop CPU. It's floating point performance was good/awesome, but its integer unit is comparatively weak even compared to the G4e's, let alone the P4's. (Look for the Ars Technica article about the PPC 970 for more details. Its integer unit was basically lifted straight out of the Power4, which was optimized for a huge frontside cache and properly-ordered 64 bit code. The 970 had a much smaller cache, and of course Mac software was distributed as 32 bit binaries. Recompiling can help with the latter but not the former.) Integer performance is what counts for desktop performance, and the G5 didn't have it. It also of course had poor thermal management compared to CPUs designed for desktop applications. In the Xserve it seems to work fine, but then the Xserve sounds like a bit like jet engine even sitting idle. Apple's constant problem with the desktops was balancing fan speed against CPU throttling, and they just never figured out how to make the machines consistently quiet enough without them either crashing or performing terribly.

Finally, it was a big mistake for Apple not to include ECC memory support in at least the "Pro" desktops. IBM has good engineers, but they come from a background that assumes that anything with a large amount of RAM uses ECC as an engineering best practice. Apple felt they "needed" to save the 15% or so ECC adds to the memory price tag so they special ordered a Northbridge not supporting it for the desktop machines. (Smart move, guys.) Intel *should* probably push PC makers into using ECC in their desktop machines, but since they don't they've gotten pretty good at making memory controllers reliable enough to do without it.

In short, the G5 is "exotic" technology crammed into an environment where it doesn't really fit. It's akin to, say, the Chrysler Turbine Car. It's certainly possible to scale down a jet engine to replace a reciprocating internal combustion one, but it takes a lot of engineering to make it work, and the end result might at best be only *arguably* superior to what it's competing with. ("Is it more powerful? No. Is it more fuel-efficient? No. Is it more reliable? Probably... once we get the bugs worked out.") If Apple's/PowerPC's desktop market share were such that it could sell as many CPUs as Nintendo and Microsoft can sell game consoles then PowerPC would be alive and well in the desktop market. Lacking that, IBM/Freescale don't have anywhere near the patience or goodwill necessary to spend their own money designing something very expensive for one noisy customer who *might* be able to sell a million units a year, and Apple couldn't/wouldn't pay enough to make them do it. Instead, Apple went to Intel so they could stop throwing money down the sewer every time they needed a new generation of CPU performance to keep up with the competition.

Which was the right choice. Instead of worrying about hard technical problems Apple can keep doing what it does best: chiseling blocks of aluminum into fancy shapes and marketing the living **** out of them. :^b

Anyway.

The system's problem is really weird, for instance, I've had the machine up and running for days, almost a week even, and it's been fine... then restarting the machine booting into leopard will make it crash! xx( ... taking out the user upgraded (Kingston crap) seems to make the G5 systems more stable but slower...but it'll still misfire on occasions plus there's no LED warning light inside (unless i'm looking at the wrong place) but i'm not really sure right now. Would like some diagnostic software to prove it's... what's available?
It's sort of a dumb thought, but have you tried removing the stock ram and running it just with the Kingston crap? An article I saw about G5 desktop reliability said that some people had experienced the stock ram getting flaky over time. I'd be skeptical, but it's worth remembering that PC3200 RAM was quite new on the market when the first-gen G5's came out. A lot of what was sold as "PC3200" was essentially factory-overclocked.

If it's consistently always crashing shortly after booting that's an "interesting" symptom. Are the crashes almost always after a cold boot? If it tends to be reliable once warmed up that might point to something not being seated well and thermal expansion being an issue. It's also possible that some piece of motherboard hardware is getting flaky and failing initialization sometimes. Do you use wireless? I've seen bad Airport cards cause crashes after bootup.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
It's maybe an exaggeration to take the statement "there are no 64-bit PowerPC apps" and add all of those extra qualifiers to it. There may be a few, I don't know whether or not Aperture is a 64-bit app, and while LightRoom is a 64-bit app, I don't know if it can run in 64-bit on PPC. Beyond that, is Maya a 64-bit app on PowerPC? If Maya or anything else isn't, then there are no commercial 64-bit apps for PowerPC. Photoshop CS4 for Windows is 64-bit, and the first 64-bit version of Photoshop on the Mac, CS5, will not run on PowerPC processors at all, so unless you're writing your own code, or there's some other app I have never heard of, then I stand by the accuracy of my statement.

As far as the benchmarks go, they favor the Intel chips because the Intel chips are better, that's pretty much as simple as it is.

As the compilers go: Apple distributes the compilers for both PowerPC and Intel Macs, so if you think something is wrong with the PowerPC compilers, and it's very possible that different compilers could help the G5 out a bit, even though it's only really great at certain things, and even then only by the standards of 2003, then it would be a good idea to bring it up with Apple.

 

UltraNEO*

Active member
In geekbench tests, the original macbook air (1.6GHz C2D) whups the pants off of all G5 systems except the dual2.7 and the dualdual2.5. This test is admittedly only of CPU and ram speed performance, and isn't necessarily indicative of the fact that even though there are no 64-bit apps for PPC macs, you could hypothetically cram sixteen gigs of ram into one of those faster G5s, or an nVidia GeFORCE 7800GT or whatever.
BTW, how has the ram swapping/testing been going?

After having read through this thread that's unfortunately the only thing I can think of in terms of what may be causing the system to be unstable, unless it really is just a faulty or mis-seated processor or other logic board component.

Ermm... Guy's you have a whole forum for the G5... Yet you choose to hi-jack this thread.

So in light of 64bit applications, how does your discussion contribute to my problem solving? Would it be too much to ask, If I say start a new thread for 64 bit applications?

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
Ermm... Guy's you have a whole forum for the G5... Yet you choose to hi-jack this thread. So in light of 64bit applications, how does your discussion contribute to my problem solving? Would it be too much to ask, If I say start a new thread for 64 bit applications?
I apologize for contributing to the problem. It just rubs me way the wrong way when people completely lacking evidence to support their beliefs start flinging their "PowerPC IS THE ONE TRUE GOD" dogma around. It's a personal failing of mine.

As I noted in the bottom in my last post... I find it curious that (as you describe it) the crashes tend to come shortly after booting. I also think it's interesting, looking at the kernel panic, that it references the "kextcache" process. Do you have any "extra" hardware hooked up to this thing, like an external hard drive, USB scanner, anything, that might be failing to initialize properly and panicking the machine? Do you have any extra PCI cards, like a USB card? And finally, are you using Airport? I've seen both bad USB devices and bad Airport cards cause panics. And I guess to add to that, I've also seen a panic from a dying hard drive.

I also repeat... do you have the original disks, specifically the hardware test/diagnostics? (Depending on the vintage of the Mac that may be a stand-alone CD, or it may be on the "Restore DVD". Hold down the option key and select it from the menu.) A few cycles of the memory test should root out bad RAM. If it's a built-in hardware device that's failing it may catch that as well.

 

UltraNEO*

Active member
Ermm... Guy's you have a whole forum for the G5... Yet you choose to hi-jack this thread. So in light of 64bit applications, how does your discussion contribute to my problem solving? Would it be too much to ask, If I say start a new thread for 64 bit applications?
I apologize for contributing to the problem. It just rubs me way the wrong way when people completely lacking evidence to support their beliefs start flinging their "PowerPC IS THE ONE TRUE GOD" dogma around. It's a personal failing of mine.

As I noted in the bottom in my last post... I find it curious that (as you describe it) the crashes tend to come shortly after booting. I also think it's interesting, looking at the kernel panic, that it references the "kextcache" process. Do you have any "extra" hardware hooked up to this thing, like an external hard drive, USB scanner, anything, that might be failing to initialize properly and panicking the machine? Do you have any extra PCI cards, like a USB card? And finally, are you using Airport? I've seen both bad USB devices and bad Airport cards cause panics. And I guess to add to that, I've also seen a panic from a dying hard drive.

I also repeat... do you have the original disks, specifically the hardware test/diagnostics? (Depending on the vintage of the Mac that may be a stand-alone CD, or it may be on the "Restore DVD". Hold down the option key and select it from the menu.) A few cycles of the memory test should root out bad RAM. If it's a built-in hardware device that's failing it may catch that as well.
Well.. the G5 tower is pretty much default or stock with the exception of the hard-drive. The originally sell for some reason (i suspect security) didn't ship it with the tower. So right now I've installed a spare drive but new in to the lower bay. Installed Leopard directly of the retail disk cause again the seller didn't include any software! Not to worry... I have tons of unused MacOS System software... Just missing system 6 retail and system 7.01 retail :beige:

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
Well.. the G5 tower is pretty much default or stock with the exception of the hard-drive. The originally sell for some reason (i suspect security) didn't ship it with the tower. So right now I've installed a spare drive but new in to the lower bay. Installed Leopard directly of the retail disk cause again the seller didn't include any software! Not to worry... I have tons of unused MacOS System software... Just missing system 6 retail and system 7.01 retail :beige:
The Apple diagnostic disks/programs are pretty machine specific. Most of my experience is with G4 Powerbooks, and the basic rule I've seen is that the disk for a machine one or two revisions newer then yours (in the same family) *might* work to test your unit, but an older disk will never work on a newer one.

 

Charlieman

Well-known member
Finally, it was a big mistake for Apple not to include ECC memory support in at least the "Pro" desktops. IBM has good engineers, but they come from a background that assumes that anything with a large amount of RAM uses ECC as an engineering best practice. Apple felt they "needed" to save the 15% or so ECC adds to the memory price tag so they special ordered a Northbridge not supporting it for the desktop machines. (Smart move, guys.) Intel *should* probably push PC makers into using ECC in their desktop machines, but since they don't they've gotten pretty good at making memory controllers reliable enough to do without it.
I'm not sure how relevant ECC is to desktop computers or even workstations. Current usage of such devices is primarily for "light computing" with the odd bit of audio and video processing. For those use cases, having an occasional bit flip (which we know is extraordinarily rare) is unimportant to the work that is being generated. Having RAM that causes the computer to crash and burn in the extreme failure case may provide a better indication to a normal user than incomprehensible system software logs.

For servers, ECC makes a lot of sense. If you're holding financial records or any sort of database in RAM, a bit flip can be expensive. And you're paying for admins or a software package to monitor your server, aren't you?

If you put ECC memory controllers in desktop PCs, what sort of quality control do you expect? I guess that Intel would do a good job overall (some of their ICH chipsets have problems, if you remember) and there'll be some horrible cheap offerings.

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
If you put ECC memory controllers in desktop PCs, what sort of quality control do you expect? I guess that Intel would do a good job overall (some of their ICH chipsets have problems, if you remember) and there'll be some horrible cheap offerings.
The whole point is that if you have ECC you can tolerate lousy quality control better then you can without it. ;^)

As mentioned here, the estimates for what the "average" rate of bit errors are vary over an enormous range, IE:

Recent tests {[11],[4],[5]} give widely varying error rates with over 7 orders of magnitude difference, ranging from 10-10 to 10-17 error/bit·h, roughly one bit error, per hour, per gigabyte of memory to one bit error, per century, per gigabyte of memory.
Obviously it's not much of a problem if it's the high end, but if we assume it's closer to the lower end *and* assume that the error rate can be materially impacted by the quality of electrical design/manufacturing workmanship of the individual computer, then it starts becoming materially important whether a system has ECC or not. If a high-quality system has a bit randomly flip once a month then it's highly unlikely there will be any problems from it. Worst case it crashes or corrupts a file, but it's more likely it's going to be rebooted or the memory block will be overwritten before there's a problem. On the other hand, if a system with an "iffy" design that uses bleeding-edge or low-production hardware flips a bit once every few hours there's a decent chance of getting hurt by it. That chance decreases by an *enormous* magnitude if properly-implemented ECC is in use. (Not only do you have to get two bit errors at once, they have to be in the same 64 bit word. In, say, 4 GB of RAM in theory there's a one in 500 million chance of that happening over the space of two consecutive bit errors.)

The PowerMac G5s were supposedly "Pro" hardware. Even Dell's cheapest line of Precision workstation offers (and offered at the time) ECC support at least as an option. (The higher end models always include it.) Even if its real value is somewhat oversold it's still "cute" that Apple didn't even offer as an option what everyone else playing in the same ballpark considered standard. And of course the Mac Pro uses ECC... proof that Intel knows in its black little heart you need it for large memory applications, perhaps?

Anyway.

 
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