Needing a "Hot Spare" Computer to Run IIci Serial Peripherals

[MarkT_a1b]

68k Mac Peripherals Experts:

I have a pristine Mac IIci, purchased new in around 1990, used mostly for recording, editing and playback of MIDI music - via Master Tracks Pro, Encore, Edit Trax, and other programs, most of them provided by the original Passport Designs, of Half Moon Bay, CA.  My very capable Opcode Systems Professional Plus MIDI interface is used, in this case, via the IIci's printer port (with network communications provided via an Asante Ethernet Nu-Bus card).  Even though all capacitors on the IIci's  main logic board, cache card and power supply have recently been replaced, which thus should render the computer reliable for the foreseeable future, for a number of reasons I would like to have a "hot spare" computer standing by, one capable of using the Opcode serial MIDI interface, and also - ideally - a late-model monitor that is considerably larger than the IIci's super-sharp Portrait monitor.

Considering that the handiest computer that I have readily available is a dual-processor Silver G4 (running OS 9.x), does anyone happen to know of a PCI card that incorporates two Mac Mini-DIN8 serial ports, and which would allow this G4 to reliably emulate the serial ports of the IIci?  The Keyspan USB Twin Serial Adapter (Mfr# USA-28XG) would seem to fit the bill, *if* one could also obtain the software drivers for it; but so far I have been unable to find one.

(Before anyone jumps in to flame me for asking a "non-68k" question here, be advised that the "68kMLA Forum Rules" link continues to exhibit a "Fatal Error" - and so if it turns out that I am way out of bounds in trying here to get my 68k peripherals working with something other than a 68k Mac, then so be it).

Thanks!

MarkT

 

[beachycove]

Would a G4 Stealth port do the trick, I wonder? This was a card that plugged into the modem connection (modem is removed), with a ribbon cable and (one) serial port at the end. I'm not sure that they worked with the Quicksilver, mind you, but it would be worth checking into. Only good under System 9 or lower.

I think if I were you, however, I'd look for something beige.

 

[MarkT_a1b]

Thanks much for the suggestion, beachycove!  It does sound as though the Stealth Port - and likewise the SX-PRO4 KeySpan Sx Pro 4-Port Serial PCI Card - would work - *if* such could be found.  So far the listings for them show "out of stock" (etc.).

In the meantime I do have a bit of beige floating around here, but my beige is *big* - and heavy - and also tedious to adapt to non-Mac monitors.  That's where the IIci's compact, rectangular CPU really shines.

I'll keep looking for those scarce Keyspan and similar items, and report back if I find any.

Thanks again,

MarkT

 

[Dandu]

You can use a Jamport : it's a peripheral like the Stealth Port. http://alexhixon.com/projects/jamport/

The adapter replace the modem to add one serial port. It works with MIDI.

 

[MarkT_a1b]

Wow, thanks Dandu!  The Jamport *does* seem to be exactly what I need.

Now I just need to make sure that the G4 on which I intend to use it falls within the supported group.  Might the CPU's serial number tell for sure?  In any case, stay tuned for an update on that subject.

Best regards,

MarkT

 

[Bunsen]

Just for future reference, none of the USB or PCI serial port devices will work with MIDI adapters, nor with LocalTalk/Appletalk.

 

[Bunsen]

everymac.com has a tool for identifying your machine from its serial number

 

[MarkT_a1b]

> none of the USB or PCI serial port devices will work with MIDI adapters, nor with LocalTalk/Appletalk.

THANK you for that important information (and the everymac.com referral), Bunsen!  That potentially saves me *much* manual hair loss.   In the meantime it turns out that the G4 I'd like to use for this is a "Power Macintosh G4 800 DP (Quicksilver), 800 MHz PowerPC 7450 (G4) x2," and now I am awaiting word from Alex Hixon on whether his Jamport will - or will not - work with this CPU.  Stay tuned for an update.

Related to this topic, the "68kMLA Forum Rules" link continues to return a "Fatal Error," so I will ask this question here: Is the "Peripherals" or other forum of 68kMLA appropriate for discussion of general MIDI subjects, even if they do not necessarily involve specific hardware?  If not, could you recommend a more appropriate forum for such discussions?

In any case, thanks again for all of the most informative replies I have received regarding this "Hot Spare" message thread.

Best regards,

MarkT

 

[Cory5412]

Is the "Peripherals" or other forum of 68kMLA appropriate for discussion of general MIDI subjects, even if they do not necessarily involve specific hardware?

It's fine, especially given that this is about connecting MIDI devices to Macs as peripherals. If it was wrong, we would probably just move the thread, with a link in the old forum lasting for (if I remember correctly) 30 days.

The rules don't really cover where to post particular things, so it kind of comes down to a judgment about whether a particular thread is about a computer, about peripherals, or about software.

Regarding the Jamport specifically - it would be wise to wait for Alex Hixon's reply, but it looks like it is expressly meant to work with MIDI and AppleTalk/LocalTalk tools. If you can, let us know what you find out!

 

[MarkT_a1b]

Thank you, Cory5412!  I agree that Alex Hixon's pages do indicate that my G4 should work, with the only unsupported G4 being one with PCI graphics.

As to MIDI over USB, poster "GaryN" reports his routine and successful use of the Keyspan USB to serial adapter (with high-end Opcode hardware) at the following link:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2484.0

*Finding* one of these things, *with* the latest drivers, however, is looking to be an impossibility.  If the single-port Jamport will work with my G4 and Opcode MIDI interface, then I'll be as happy as a grownup.

MarkT

 

[Bunsen]

My mistake.  If I'm remembering correctly this time round, Keyspan made the only adapters that worked correctly for MIDI or Localtalk.

 

[NJRoadfan]

Keyspan's adapters won't work with LocalTalk as that relies on the SDLC mode of the Zilog SCC chip. MIDI likely works because the adapter specifically supports MIDI bit rates (Apple's serial to MIDI adapters were mostly levels convertors with a basic clock).

Ports like the Jamport and Stealth serial rely on the fact that Apple still included the Zilog SCC on those later machines to interface with the built in modem. It should be 100% software compatible with any MIDI software that works over a built-in serial port.

 

[Gorgonops]

used mostly for recording, editing and playback of MIDI music - via Master Tracks Pro, Encore, Edit Trax, and other programs

Just out of curiosity, are you looking to run the same software binaries on the G4 that you run on the IIci? I think a major concern there would be if the software will actually work under OS 9.x (or in Classic on OS X, whichever your plan was.) If you have to upgrade to later versions I can't help but wonder if it might be worth switching to a native USB Midi controller. Here's a thread over on OS9 Lives! about OS9-compatible MIDI boxes. Does the software you're running have a specific dependency on using an internal serial port MIDI device, or does it hit an OS-level software layer that would allow it to use a USB device?

(I honestly don't know how much OS support there is for MIDI in MacOS; Windows has had a software interface for MIDI that had at least some hardware-agnostic backwards compatibility all the way back to Windows 3.0, but I have no idea if something that runs on a IIci uses a software abstraction driver or depends on directly bit-banging the port. Only MIDI thing I've done under Classic MacOS myself is use a little M-Audio 1x1 USB device along with piano training software on a B&W G3 under 9.2.x, so I'm obviously out of my depth here on the subject.)

 

[MarkT_a1b]

Ports like the Jamport and Stealth serial rely on the fact that Apple still included the Zilog SCC on those later machines to interface with the built in modem. It should be 100% software compatible with any MIDI software that works over a built-in serial port.

Thanks, "NJRoadfan."  Right now it looks as though I will have a chance to test a Keyspan USB serial converter with the referenced G4 and my Passport MIDI software, so stay tuned for an update.  A reply to "Gorgonops" will follow separately.  MarkT

 

[MarkT_a1b]

> Just out of curiosity, are you looking to run the same software binaries on the G4 that you run on the IIci? I think a major concern

> there would be if the software will actually work under OS 9.x (or in Classic on OS X, whichever your plan was.)

I have successfully and routinely edited Passport "Encore" notation scores, using the OS 9.2.2 G4, and am confident of that continuing to work.  In addition, I *have* successfully run Master Tracks Pro sequencing software on this box, although without MIDI communications, and am hoping that the proper Keyspan adapter will provide for a workable IIci back-up and/or replacement.  Stand by for an update.

> Does the software you're running have a specific dependency on using an internal serial port MIDI device, or does

> it hit an OS-level software layer that would allow it to use a USB device?

The software definitely requires selection of one (or with some  advanced MIDI interfaces, both) serial port, but my understanding is that the Keyspan uses both a System Extension and a Control Panel to emulate the hardware serial ports, via the USB interface.  With any luck I will be able to report back on that within a few days.  Sounding like a broken record (or an infinite MIDI sequencer loop): Stay tuned.

Thanks, "Gorgonops"!  MarkT

 

[MarkT_a1b]

Continuing under this "Hot Spare" message thread, I have discovered a huge "fly in the ointment": The dual-boot, dual-processor G4 on which I have been intending to test a Keyspan USB serial adapter (or similar) seems to have a dead Ethernet port.  The computer has sat unused for a while, but has also been disconnected from the network *and* AC power during that time, and thus not subject to static discharge, electrical spikes and the like.  The Ethernet cable and switch port have been verified as being good; the clock battery has been replaced; and the reset button on the motherboard has been activated.

Any ideas on how to proceed??

 

[MarkT_a1b]

> ... The dual-boot, dual-processor G4 ... seems to have a dead Ethernet port....

As Inspector Clouseau would say: "Case solv-ed."

By using a very small, fine flat bastard file (yes, that's the correct nomenclature) to polish the spring-wire contacts within the G4's Ethernet port, the interface came to life.  Even though the computer has been stored in a dry, warm, basically dust-free space, one or more contactors must have oxidized just enough to prevent signal connectivity.  FWIIW....

 

[MarkT_a1b]

I previously promised to report back on my progress - or lack of it - in getting reliable MIDI data to and from my Quicksilver G4s, and while I will *try* to provide this account without writing an entire book, the whole enterprise has been quite an "adventure," to say the least (cough!).

A most helpful list member had in stock two spare Keyspan USB-to-serial adapters that he was willing to part with, and which he routinely used (and still uses) to accomplish *almost* exactly what I am trying to do.  That said, he is using Opcode Studio Vision Pro 4.5, which requires the use of the Opcodes Open Music System (OMS), and OMS in turn is picky about which MIDI interfaces it will - or will not - communicate with.




By now, I have determined that the Keyspans do not *quite* perfectly emulate the Mac's serial Printer port (nor do they support AppleTalk) - and on G4s (etc.) having built-in modems, they are not capable of emulating the Modem port.

See https://www.tripplite.com/main/search?q=USA-28XG for Keyspan docs.  ("Currently, Keyspan only supports Mark of the Unicorn's FreeMIDI software.")  From page 15 of the Keyspan manual:

The Emulate Modem/Printer Port check box allows your Keyspan adapter to emulate the "PrinterPort" or "ModemPort" as found on older Macintosh computers.




This allows software that is not CommToolBox Savvy to use a port on the Keyspan adapter.

Note: This option is only available on Macs that do not have a built-in Modem.... [emphasis added]








I do not know if my Passport Designs software is "CommToolBox Savvy," but Master Tracks Pro (and likewise Encore) *does* include the option to connect to MIDI devices via OMS - in addition to the native Passport drivers, the MIDI Time Piece, and the MIDI Manager.  No matter which *drivers* are selected, however, MT Pro (etc.) requires connection to the hardware *MIDI* interface via either the Modem or Printer port (or, in usage with certain more sophisticated interfaces, *both* ports at once).

Here is what Alex Hixon, of Jamport fame, has to say in response to my earlier inquiry: It sounds like the Keyspans emulate an RS232 port (I'm assuming this from the "balanced" comment).  Also, The clocking signal is a Zilog extension.  Some devices use it to clock data at very high rates, or non-standard rates.  Data is expected to be read and written as per that clock rate, not a standard serial baud.

My Studio 4 does that, for instance.  So, if I plugged it into a Keyspan or used a regular serial adapter, it wouldn't work either. [see below*]

So, strictly speaking, the pinouts *are* different.  The GPIO and HSKo/HSKi pins likely don't do anything, or are mapped to different pins.  See:

http://alexhixon.com/projects/jamport/development.html for more details.

So, I would assume that your system would work fine with the Jamport, but not with the Keyspans.


---------------

*According to an expert source, the Studio 4 *does* work with the Keyspans - but the OMS installation includes a System Extension named "USB OMSMIDI Driver," which "... apparently is Opcode's way of passing MIDI data through the USB port.  (Also according to this source, just before the company permanently ceased operations, the Opcode programmers "set free" a freeware implementation of Studio Vision Pro 4.5.)  Thus an OMS-compatible MIDI interface *should* work equally well with both SVP *and* my existing Passport software (see below).

This source also adds: "Your Opcode [Professional Plus] interface is ancient.  It lacks what's known as 'balanced line drivers' AND - (this is the bad part) it cannot be 'seen' by OMS.  That's because OMS is looking for a clock signal generated by the interface...."




So by now it is clear that OMS drivers are never going work with my MIDI interface, but Passport's *should* continue to work, since they apparently transmit to and receive data from a port and its connected MIDI interface "in the blind."  The trick is getting the MIDI data to and from the interface, and the serial port emulation of the Keyspans - without application-specific support for USB, as with Opcode's - is not capable of doing that.

In the meantime, Alex Hixon has verified that the native Passport MIDI drivers *do* work via his Jamport - which is a true serial port, rather than an emulation - as well as via OMS.  Thus I now have a couple of these coming from Australia (although via a slow boat, it would seem), and do fully expect them to work "out of the box" in my two G4s.  If, OTOH, upon receipt of these devices I encounter unexpected snags, I will report back to the list accordingly.  Otherwise, "no news is good news"!

In the meantime, *many* thanks to the list members who have shared their expertise (and hardware!) in addressing my G4 MIDI needs.






MarkT

 

[Bunsen]

Thanks for reporting back, MarkT.  Compiling all the information you gathered along the way will be very helpful for the next person who starts down this road.