MacTCP query

[beachycove]

I have a Quadra running MacTCP (under System 7.1) that I am trying to/ hoping to connect to the outside world via an SMC router. I'd like to use the Quadra as an Apple IP Gateway machine for a localtalk-only device (my eMate - as there was a MacIP extension that shipped with the Newton 2.0 machines, I thought I'd give it a whirl).

The trouble is that I cannot seem to get IP networking to work properly on the Quadra. Though on the local subnet, the eMate connects and gets its IP address from the IP Gateway software running on the Quadra, there the IP networking chain stops. The eMate, in short, connects to the IP Gateway, but not to anything beyond it. Evidently the Quadra is not getting out to the outside world.

Manual addressing in MacTCP on the Quadra is set to a fixed local subnet address (192.168.xxx.xxx), Class C, with the gateway address set as the IP of my SMC router. The numbers have all been checked and double checked. Any number of DNS server addresses have been tried, as this would seem to be the main variable left (none of them work, including the IP of the router itself). I have tried dynamic (Server, in MacTCP lingo) addressing also, but it does not work either. I guess that ye olde BootP protocol is incompatible with the SMC unit. Ho hum.

The odd thing is that I can ping the IP address I gave the Quadra from a G5, which is networked to and through the same SMC router. So something is set up right! Yet at the same time, the SMC router shows absolutely no record of the Quadra in its connection log.

Is this failing because I am stupid, MacTCP is stupid, or the SMC router is stupid? Any tidbits of technical advice or even pastoral counseling would be gratefully accepted.

 

[porter]

So the "IP Gateway" is a MacIP server? Does it know it's supposed to route to the ethernet interface?

Does it treat the localtalk network as new completely new subnet?

Sounds like a routing issue. How is the SMC router supposed to know to pass packets for the IP addresses on the localtalk network via the Quadra?

Try running "traceroute" on the G5 with IP address for

(a) the SMC router

( B) the Quadra

© the eMate

 

[beachycove]

Apple IP Gateway was a MacIP server product produced c. 1993. The SMC router would need only to network successfully with the machine it runs on, as Apple IP Gateway takes charge of routing things over the localtalk subnet.

I am pretty sure the trouble lies in the MacTCP - SMC router connection. I may need to take a peek at IPNetrouter.

 

[tomlee59]

MacTCP is ancient enough to cause difficulty with modern gear. In particular, it doesn't play nice with DHCP.

Are you able to surf with the Quadra as it's currently configured? I'm guessing not.

Try specifying an IP address in MacTCP that lies outside of the range of addresses used by your router for DHCP (after making sure that your router is configured not to reserve all addresses for DHCP).

 

[caryn]

MacTCP is a fully-compliant TCP/IP (and thus UDP/IP) driver. Your SMC Router (Model??) should have no trouble on this account, unless it was specifically built for DOSBOXES (in which case you're probably hosed).

The signal point to me seems to be a bit of confusion in your network topology. LocalTalk is an AppleTalk hardware-layer interface; it handles AppleTalk connections across LocalTalk physical media (a 230Kbs paired TX-RX serial line connection terminated at its distant ends). There are many LocalTalk implementation---PhoneNet was very popular and inexpensive, Apple made its own LocalTalk physical media, and so did some others.

EtherTalk is also an AppleTalk hardware-layer interface; it handles AppleTalk connections over Ethernet physical media (10Base-2, 10Base-5, 10Base-T, 100Base-TX, 10/100Base-TX, etc..). There is even a FDDITalk and of course, TokenTalk.

ALL of these are AppleTalk networks, even those that use Ethernet physical media.

From what you describe, it would appear your Quadra is connected to two physically discrete networks employing different software architectures; one AppleTalk network---eMate to Quadra---and one TCP/IP network---Quadra to Backbone.

Unless you have actual Macintosh routing or bridging software, or A/UX with Packet Forwarding enabled, your Quadra will NOT route data between the two Networks.

It would be helpful if you could tell me what information you discover from opening the MacTCP and Network Control Panels---the full IP Address, the full network mask (not '.xxx' please), the full router IP, DNS server info (unless that is publicly accessible, of course, in which case you have another problem), Domain Name info, and any Hosts file info (for MacTCP), and which Interface is selected (in the the Network CP).

DHCP is problematic for small networks, particularly if they connect to wider LANs or WANs (like your ISP). While useful for some applications, it is a lot of trouble for small networks. Unless you have a compelling reason to employ DHCP, don't; it makes Network troubleshooting very difficult unless you have control over every aspect of the network, have all the complimentary software, and lots of bandwidth to burn (which your Quadra certainly does NOT---it can maybe hit 1Mb/s throughput on Ethernet, which is still better than a DOSBOX).

I do not believe MacTCP is your problem. I run MacTCP in a multi-vendor IP environment with no problems---MacTen, OpenTransport, 10.4, AIX 4, A/UX---trouble-free. I suspect you have TWO problems interfering with one another---a confused Quadra, and an attempt to route/bridge from the Quadra to the Backbone; a BIND problem.

Lastly, one odd difficulty afflicting switched or routed networks with multiple-IP per MAC (not Mac as in Macintosh) addresses---sometimes the switch/router/hub needs to be physically powered off for some amount of time to clear its switch fabric or routing tables (yes, even if you've switched it off, or flushed the tables, etc...); for cage routers, the suspect card must be pulled, too---sometimes in inexpensive router/switch/hub products, one must pull the RJ45 cables in lieu of pulling a card (but still after pulling the physical power), though I don't know that I've done this more than once, if at all (pulling the cables, not the card or disconnecting physical power---that I've done plenty).

Hope this helps---please post the info if you still need another pair of eyes to look at the problem you've been staring at.

Routing/bridging products include LaserWriter Bridge (shareware, I think, also may be called LocalTalk Bridge), Apple's AppleTalk Router, and Asante's physical bridges (these would simplify your problem in some ways, and complicate it in others). MacDNS can provide you with closed-network name resolution, but I don't remember if it supports the 'forwarders' declaration to get you out to the World.

KAH

 

[beachycove]

Thanks for this detailed reply. None of this is mission-critical, but for what it's worth:

The eMate is networked via PhoneNet, has NIE installed and has the MacIP Newton package also installed. It is networked to an LC475's printer port. The LC475 does service as an Appletalk Router (Apple Internet Router), Print Server (Appleshare 4), and Apple IP Gateway (by the software of the same name, which has only ever been used in trials with the eMate). Ethertalk and TCP/IP are thus sharing the same ethernet card, while Appletalk also runs on the printer port. The NIC in question is an ordinary LCPDS card, trouble-free. The LC475 is running 7.1 and MacTCP, which is the stock system configuration for these various bits and pieces of software.

The LC475's ethernet port is connected to an old Hub and the Hub to an SMC Barricade g Router, which in turn accesses my ISP via an ADSL Modem. The LC475 can ping remote hosts, and not only hosts on my private network, so MacTCP on it would appear to be functional. I do not have a browser installed, so have not tried more than a ping, but the ping's the thing for our purposes.

The SMC Router has an address of 192.168.2.1; the LC475 has manual addressing in its MacTCP panel set at 192.168.2.60, with Gateway at 192.168.2.1 and its DNS servers set at what my Router returns if I log into it (its gets its address via DHCP). Oh, and Subnets in MacTCP are set at 255.255.255.0 .

MacIP on the eMate is set to get an address from my Apple IP Gateway (the LC475), and it does so (this is reported as it happens on the eMate). I have tried various DNS server settings on the eMate's Internet Setup - my ISP's are those set at the moment; I have also tried my SMC router and the LC475 itself; the results are the same whatever I do. I am not sure what else to tell you. As I say, the eMate gets its IP address from the LC475 - I have set a range, and it takes the first of the available numbers - but connection to the WAN fails at the DNS lookup stage, i.e., when it tries to resolve an address. It also fails (with a different error message re. network connection having failed) if I simply enter a known IP address of a server in the eMate's browser, NetHopper.

The trouble might be the MacIP software on the eMate; I have read success stories on the NewtTalk discussion list archive, but also complaints about MacIp on the Newton platform, in which the need to use a proxy DNS server was mentioned (that I have not tried, as I don't honestly know what it is - at this stage on life's way, anyway).

Maybe I should just use a good old modem and phone jack....