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Mac Hardware Hacking Ideas
- Thread starter bigmessowires
- Start date
Re: IIgs support for the FloppyEMU: there are quite a few devices out there that cover parts of the same territory. Here's a pretty comprehensive list. To really make the FloppyEMU the go-to device for IIgs users I'd hazard that you'd want to cover the following territory:
1: 800k "native" floppy emulation. (IE, using an 800k drive the "same way" a Mac does vs. SmartPort protocol. This is probably the area least-well-covered by the Apple II-focused solutions. Being able to do 800k images as if they were hosted by a SmartPort "Unidisk" drive would also be useful and would make the device attractive to IIe and IIc users as well.)
2: 140k floppy emulation. (There's a lot of Apple II software out there, mostly self-booters, that aren't ported to 800k format yet, so a IIgs with only access to 3.5 inch drives is at a disadvantage when it comes to accessing the entire library.)
3: SmartPort hard disk emulation. (IE, "HD-20 for Apple II's". There are a couple devices out there for that.)
It would be *really* nice to have a device that could handle at least two of these functions at once. (Pick two, any two. All three would be super, super awesome.) Since the existing FloppyEMU can't do HD-20 and floppy simultaneously I assume you'd have to modify the hardware to achieve that, however.
(PS: Regarding the CCFA 3000... it's nice, but availability is a problem and it costs a mint. *And* it requires a slot. Yes, not a problem for IIe and IIgs users, but a floppy-port based solution also works for the IIc.)
1: 800k "native" floppy emulation. (IE, using an 800k drive the "same way" a Mac does vs. SmartPort protocol. This is probably the area least-well-covered by the Apple II-focused solutions. Being able to do 800k images as if they were hosted by a SmartPort "Unidisk" drive would also be useful and would make the device attractive to IIe and IIc users as well.)
2: 140k floppy emulation. (There's a lot of Apple II software out there, mostly self-booters, that aren't ported to 800k format yet, so a IIgs with only access to 3.5 inch drives is at a disadvantage when it comes to accessing the entire library.)
3: SmartPort hard disk emulation. (IE, "HD-20 for Apple II's". There are a couple devices out there for that.)
It would be *really* nice to have a device that could handle at least two of these functions at once. (Pick two, any two. All three would be super, super awesome.) Since the existing FloppyEMU can't do HD-20 and floppy simultaneously I assume you'd have to modify the hardware to achieve that, however.
(PS: Regarding the CCFA 3000... it's nice, but availability is a problem and it costs a mint. *And* it requires a slot. Yes, not a problem for IIe and IIgs users, but a floppy-port based solution also works for the IIc.)
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Elfen
Well-known member
I could throw in my hat for number 8, but add the following.
Like a Dove Board - more RAM for a Mac 128/512.
Since it was never implemented for the Classic Mac, add a FPU to the classic 68K. I believe this was in some Amiga. From what I read in my 68K Books, you can add a FPU to the 68K. It would definitely speed up some things for the Mac classic series.
I would also love something like a Commodore PET's IEE488 parallel output for the Mac; where one can interface hardware to the Mac directly. It would be more like a GPIO on the Raspberry Pi, but on a Mac it would be great.
Like a Dove Board - more RAM for a Mac 128/512.
Since it was never implemented for the Classic Mac, add a FPU to the classic 68K. I believe this was in some Amiga. From what I read in my 68K Books, you can add a FPU to the 68K. It would definitely speed up some things for the Mac classic series.
I would also love something like a Commodore PET's IEE488 parallel output for the Mac; where one can interface hardware to the Mac directly. It would be more like a GPIO on the Raspberry Pi, but on a Mac it would be great.
bigmessowires
Well-known member
Thanks for all the ideas. It's funny that opinions are all over the map - no clear favorites, although I think IIgs disk emulation got the most mentions, closely followed by a 68K accelerator and compact mac video out.
If you guys weren't aware, bbraun has some very promising video out stuff working on a Mac SE. It's a device that plugs into the SE PDS slot, and sends the frame buffer data over USB to an OS X Mac, where it's displayed in a window. Details are on mac68k.info.
To be honest I don't really know anything about the IIgs or the Apple II series, so I'd have to do a lot of reading to begin to understand Gorgonops' list, or the difference between ProDOS block device emulation and generic floppy emulation.
A 68K accelerator upgrade appeals more to my interests, but is probably far more complex than anything else on the list.
I also like Elfin's idea of a GPIO style port for interfacing to other arbitrary hardware. But I'm not sure what it would be used for really, or how many people would find it useful.
Unfortunately the Lisa community is probably too small to justify custom hardware for it. I'm still hoping that with the right knowledge, the Floppy Emu could be made compatible with the Lisa through only a firmware change. But I don't think I'd want to get into building Lisa-specific hardware.
The right-angle adapter for Floppy Emu is basically a dead idea, because the physical dimensions of the Mac case and the Emu board don't really work out. It would be possible to build a different version of the Emu board with a right angle built in, like how Uniserver modded his. But for something with fairly limited appeal it would be hard to justify the work involved to create and manufacture a "model B" revision board, requiring a separate type of case, and manufactured in quantities too small to get a good economy of scale. If you really want a vertical mount, it might be easier to use the Emu with extension cable, but replace the 3 foot cable with a 6 inch cable, and then mount the Emu board to the back of the Mac with a custom mount or even just velcro.
The idea of a headless HD20-only Emu has come up a few times. I take this as meaning "I wish it cost less", which I definitely appreciate. Removing the floppy firmware features wouldn't affect the cost, though, and eliminating the screen and buttons would only make a small difference in cost while forcing new stuff to be added to support firmware updates and error reporting. I've thought about doing a complete redesign of Floppy Emu using a different microcontroller and other manufacturing changes to help bring the cost down. That would be a huge time investment though, and it would require a big boost in sales of the redesigned model to make it worthwhile. But Emu sales have been slowly tapering off, as most people who want one already have one, which is why I'm here fishing for new ideas.
Even though it didn't get many mentions, I think I may tackle the keyboard adapter stuff next. Since it's something I find personally interesting, and I already know more or less what's needed to make it work.
If you guys weren't aware, bbraun has some very promising video out stuff working on a Mac SE. It's a device that plugs into the SE PDS slot, and sends the frame buffer data over USB to an OS X Mac, where it's displayed in a window. Details are on mac68k.info.
To be honest I don't really know anything about the IIgs or the Apple II series, so I'd have to do a lot of reading to begin to understand Gorgonops' list, or the difference between ProDOS block device emulation and generic floppy emulation.
A 68K accelerator upgrade appeals more to my interests, but is probably far more complex than anything else on the list.
I also like Elfin's idea of a GPIO style port for interfacing to other arbitrary hardware. But I'm not sure what it would be used for really, or how many people would find it useful.
Unfortunately the Lisa community is probably too small to justify custom hardware for it. I'm still hoping that with the right knowledge, the Floppy Emu could be made compatible with the Lisa through only a firmware change. But I don't think I'd want to get into building Lisa-specific hardware.
The right-angle adapter for Floppy Emu is basically a dead idea, because the physical dimensions of the Mac case and the Emu board don't really work out. It would be possible to build a different version of the Emu board with a right angle built in, like how Uniserver modded his. But for something with fairly limited appeal it would be hard to justify the work involved to create and manufacture a "model B" revision board, requiring a separate type of case, and manufactured in quantities too small to get a good economy of scale. If you really want a vertical mount, it might be easier to use the Emu with extension cable, but replace the 3 foot cable with a 6 inch cable, and then mount the Emu board to the back of the Mac with a custom mount or even just velcro.
The idea of a headless HD20-only Emu has come up a few times. I take this as meaning "I wish it cost less", which I definitely appreciate. Removing the floppy firmware features wouldn't affect the cost, though, and eliminating the screen and buttons would only make a small difference in cost while forcing new stuff to be added to support firmware updates and error reporting. I've thought about doing a complete redesign of Floppy Emu using a different microcontroller and other manufacturing changes to help bring the cost down. That would be a huge time investment though, and it would require a big boost in sales of the redesigned model to make it worthwhile. But Emu sales have been slowly tapering off, as most people who want one already have one, which is why I'm here fishing for new ideas.
Even though it didn't get many mentions, I think I may tackle the keyboard adapter stuff next. Since it's something I find personally interesting, and I already know more or less what's needed to make it work.
I didn't mean to be too obtuse or discouraging there. I think mostly what I was trying to get across is while just getting the Floppy Emu to work as a 3.5 inch drive for IIgs'es (which should require only very minimal hacking of what you already have) would indeed "add value" for it to really be a must-have peripheral for II emulation it should probably also handle at least one of the other two tasks... and to do those tasks you'll have to make it:
A: Support the "slow" data rate of the IWM, which isn't used on the Mac, and:
B: To do the hard disk/"UniDisk" emulation you'd need to add support for the "SmartPort" protocol, which is analogous to but not the same as the HD-20. (IE, it's a protocol for communicating with "smart" disk devices and uses the IWM essentially as a UART instead of the bits sent and received going directly to a drive read/write head.) This "smart" protocol was necessary for use with 3.5" disk drives on the IIc and IIe because their CPUs/buses were too slow to drive the IWM at the 2mhz necessary for "fast mode". (The "Unidisk" 3.5" drive has an embedded controller board with an MCU on it that ran the disk mechanism at "mac speeds" and buffered the data for the slower II interface.)
Luckily the second part should (hopefully) be relatively easy because a number of open-source implementations of smartport devices already exist. The gotchya with emulating old-fashioned 5 1/4" disk drives is that the function of the control lines is completely different than it is in smartport or 3.5" drive mode. (for the old 5.25" drives they act as raw stepper motor controls, none of that fancy control register stuff applies.) Again, though, open-source implementations exist, so... it's probably *mostly* a matter of porting to your hardware?
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olePigeon
Well-known member
BMOW, I have a broken PowerKey I'd be happy to donate for Number 6. I suspect the relay is bad. I have a new one that I use on my IIci. It's a combo ADB cable & power switch. It adds soft-power for any Mac.
Maybe the software and hardware will give you some ideas on how to accomplish it.
Maybe the software and hardware will give you some ideas on how to accomplish it.
This one is the most interesting to me. I've been following dougg3's work in this area with interest.
In related news, my Floppy Emu arrived yesterday and my SE is now working again. I'm already sick of cramming things into 800K disk images.
I'll replace the SE's internal SCSI drive with an SCSI2SD once those are back in stock. With the fan replaced it should be pretty silent.
Juliet Elysa
Well-known member
The two I would use most would be the magic turn-on peripheral (especially if it worked with all or nearly all Macs) and the adapter for modern keyboards and mice, in that order. At the moment all of my computers have working power buttons and/or keys and mice and keyboards, but not all computers are that fortunate.
techknight
Well-known member
I would like to see the accelerator personally. Would be more interesting to see if it can be done 100% FPGA, because those things can be clocked to some insane speeds.
bigmessowires
Well-known member
Your SE is compatible with the Floppy Emu hard disk emulation (HD20 mode). Install the alternate firmware from http://www.bigmessowires.com/macintosh-floppy-emu/and you can have disk images up to 2 GB!In related news, my Floppy Emu arrived yesterday and my SE is now working again. I'm already sick of cramming things into 800K disk images.
Thanks. I think it's pretty simple. The power key just momentarily connects one of the ADB pins to ground. For Macs with a soft power supply, that makes them turn on. For the Power Key, I think it has its own internal circuit that sees the grounded ADB pin, and switches a 110V or 220V relay to energize the output where the computer is plugged in. The only thing I'm unclear about is how to accomplish soft power-off for a Mac that doesn't have a soft power supply. I can't recall - does the PowerKey require a system init or extension or anything?
The IIci has a soft power supply already, if I'm not mistaken, so why do you need a Power Key on it? Off the top of my head there weren't many ADB-equipped Macs that didn't have the soft power supply. Maybe just the SE and the LC series. Maybe the Classic?
techknight
Well-known member
bbraun or dougg3 worked on this awhile back, there is a pin on the VIA that is used to turn off the power management circuit.
he made an extension for the SE/30 to toggle poweroff on shutdown. So hooking that up to a D flop latch setup would flip off a relay and cut the machine off.
he made an extension for the SE/30 to toggle poweroff on shutdown. So hooking that up to a D flop latch setup would flip off a relay and cut the machine off.
bigmessowires
Well-known member
Yup, I've seen that pin in the VIA - but that's only on Macs that have a soft PSU, right? Those Macs don't actually need a Power Key. So the question is how can you build something that provides soft OFF behavior to Macs that don't have a soft PSU.
techknight
Well-known member
Well the SE/30 didnt have a soft PSU, but it did have a power-off signal routed from one of the VIAs to the PDS. So he just made an extension to actually toggle this pin when the machine was chosen to shutdown.
This pin is used in combination with your own circuit to hard-cut the power to the power supply, Still need some sort of a standby supply built to handle it, or use a battery like the Mac IIx. Basically a relay stuck inside the original power supply to cut-off the AC supply to the main power supply unit. This relay would be connected to your own logic circuit powered by either a standby supply, or the PRAM battery. Two wires from this circuit would then go to the ADB power-key, and the VIA pin. It would be a hack for sure, and something is definitely NOT solderless.
For a plus or SE, if there are no extra pins available to a VIA, it would be a fair assumption a 3rd via would need added to add some expandability to the machine for this type of setup. And an extension written to be aware of the new addon circuit.
This pin is used in combination with your own circuit to hard-cut the power to the power supply, Still need some sort of a standby supply built to handle it, or use a battery like the Mac IIx. Basically a relay stuck inside the original power supply to cut-off the AC supply to the main power supply unit. This relay would be connected to your own logic circuit powered by either a standby supply, or the PRAM battery. Two wires from this circuit would then go to the ADB power-key, and the VIA pin. It would be a hack for sure, and something is definitely NOT solderless.
For a plus or SE, if there are no extra pins available to a VIA, it would be a fair assumption a 3rd via would need added to add some expandability to the machine for this type of setup. And an extension written to be aware of the new addon circuit.
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360alaska
Well-known member
I would suggest running this addon in parallel with the power button... Basically, you'll have the option to turn it on using the power button on the back or you can trigger the relay by pressing the power button... Using a circuit like this
Although I'm sure you'll have to amplify the on/of signals to trigger the relays)
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techknight
Well-known member
Would be easier just using a single relay, a D-Type flipflop with a Set-Reset input, and a transistor/relay. That way the power key can trigger the flip flop, latch it in and engage the relay. Its always on no matter what. Then the VIA pin is hooked to Reset, so when mac shuts down, it clears the flipflop which shuts off the relay. Relay then cuts power to the mac, allowing the Reset line to go back to a floating state for you to press the power key again.
Now, the other option is use a microcontroller, that way, you can press and continuously hold the power key to force a power-off in case of a hard freeze.
Now, the other option is use a microcontroller, that way, you can press and continuously hold the power key to force a power-off in case of a hard freeze.
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CC_333
Well-known member
Like most (if not all) Macs made within the last 18 years?
Interesting idea. How would that work? Instead of the flip-flop, the signal coming from the LB controls the relay directly (or through a simple transistor)?
c
tt
Well-known member
It would be cool to be able to toggle the disk images in the Floppy EMU from the Mac itself, via a program or control panel. Then you could tuck it away internally if you'd like and sort of use it like a hard drive. This goes along with the headless version idea.
I also like the idea of being able to interface a compact mac video out to an LCD for CRT/Analog board replacement.
I also like the idea of being able to interface a compact mac video out to an LCD for CRT/Analog board replacement.
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