How long until we see enhanced mac motherboard recreations?

[Gothikon]

How long until we see a new 68k (or PPC) Mac motherboard recreation with the following?
- ATX or ITX form factor
- ATX or USB C power connector
- ADB and USB ports for keyboard and mouse
- HDMI out
- soldered on RAM
- SD card or for storage

Context

I have about 20 retro computers, mostly Macs, a couple of Amigas and some consoles. I'm finding the maintenance (actual and anticipated) more and more off putting. It would be fine if it was just recapping, but it looks like brittle plastics will be the deal breaker long term. Honestly I'm tempted to sell off several machines whilst they're still worth something before they completely self destruct.

On the other hand I have a MiSTer FPGA. It does an amazing job of recreating old consoles and really the only thing missing is a decent Mac core (the only mac one I'm aware of is quite limited). The MiSTer "just works" If I had got my hands on one sooner I wouldn't have bothered picking up a couple of Amigas. It gives me the retro fix but without the maintenance overhead and as a dedicated device with a really simple UI it's less distracting than something like a Pi or Mac running a bunch of emulators.

Speaking of Amigas, their scene seems to have benefited from Commadore releasing relatively few models. It seems to have made it easier people to develop replacements for just about anything. The SE/30 seems to be getting there on the Mac side, but I don't expect to see a replacement case for my Quadra 840AV any time soon. There seem to be some good advancements on the DOS PC side too in the last couple of years (I appreciate it's a much bigger market and they benefit from some stuff designed for the industrial PCs).

So back to my original question. How long until we see replacement motherboards with a few more mods built in? SD card adapters, USB->ADB adapters, video to HDMI adapters all exist as separate items. What barriers need to be overcome?

Whilst everyone has their favourite models something like a performance 630 with standard video and storage connectors in ATX or ITX form factor would cover 90% of my retro mac needs. The 630 might seem like an odd choice but it's also one of the last 040 machines, has decent onboard video and doesn't have a bunch of random underutilised features like my beloved 840AV

 

[ObeyDaleks]

My personal opinion, Mac collectors are a different breed than Amiga collectors. I think the percentage of Mac collectors who would prefer to have a "newer better alternative" is low. I myself have a bunch of Macs that have been meticulously restored to practically new condition, inside and out. The last thing on my mind is to "upgrade" these machines with modern mass-produced hardware. Also, I don't believe most Mac collectors care that much about playing massive amounts of games or demos like the Amiga crowd. It's mostly about the hardware.

In the Amiga world, I think it's reversed. You have small percentage of the "purists" who hate the idea of a Pistorm or running CaffeineOS, etc. But for the most part, all the new hardware is extremely popular. Part of it is probably the fact that once you have your 4-5 basic Amiga models, your collection is pretty much done. Now what? You can see a huge difference in the youtube channels. Most of the Amiga channels are along the lines of "what new mod will I add to my a1200?".

 

[luRaichu]

I want to play crysis on my amiga 1200!!!

 

[chelseayr]

have to agree with obeydaleks..
even then I will just add these comments;
itx is just simply atx without several more pci slots so I guess it might depend on the user's card(s) wishes,
just curious why atx? 12vo is more progressive (and much smaller to deal with),
assuming that adb is native in the first place I don't have any issue with both being offered (alike to dual adb+ps2 on certain older boards),
only if paired with something else since hdmi can't even drive the usual monitors otherwise (especially non-60hz signals required),
hmm no comment on ram from me for now,
how about a more neutral storage connector instead? (asking people to find rare expensive adapters to be able to use commonplace medias instead is mm yeah questionable)

 

[Gothikon]

To clarify a couple of things:
- By ATX or ITX I mean “any standard motherboard size” that’s easy to find a case for. For example I have a MiSTer Multisystem which is great, except I’m limited to 3d printed cases unless I modify something due to the non standard board size
- I’m not quite sure I understand the comment about a neutral storage connector. I suggest SD cards because spinning disks are large and completely overkill for retro Mac software. SD cards are small, cheap and there are several great adapters which could be integrated in to a motherboard replacement. any other solid state storage would be great if a suitable adapter could be integrated in to a 68k motherboard design.

Lastly, I do love my retro Macs, I have pretty much maxed them all out but collecting them could be considered a different hobby from using them, which I also enjoy. I feel like I have to baby most of the machines I’ve got and the cases will mostly disintegrate long before I die.

An alternagive solution would be to wait for more case recreations to appear, or support the people with the skills to make them, but there are a lot of designs to recreate and I imagine the market is pretty small.

 

[Unknown_K]

The problem with new motherboards or new cases is Nubus cards are wider than PCI cards so you will have issues in mounting and spacing.

I do like people making 100% motherboard recreations so battery bombed, or broken systems can be fixed. Same with CPU upgrade cards. I wouldn't even mind a SATA or IDE Nubus storage card if it was cheap enough. New power supplies would be cool if they would fit in the old spaces.

Macs never dies out, so you don't have the Amiga problem where you have to modernize the platform if you want to do anything modern on it.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

@bigmessowires developed a laser cut plexi mini-case for his LC machines a while back:

Homemade Mini Case for LC, P475, Q605

Here's my entry in the "design a custom case" bonanza! Like Trash80toHP_Mini, I'm making a case for the LC series pizza-box computers, which also includes the Performa 475 and Quadra 605. It'll be just the logic board, power supply, and SCSI2SD for main storage. No fan. No floppy drive, but...

68kmla.org

If you want to re-case your boards in PC form factors, pick a case that has a removable Backplane panel for a Mac specific laser cut or printed unit.

I've been fooling around with plexi rackmount cases, a desktop or under desk rack could hold several Macs:

2UBG3 - Beige G3 2U Rackmount build - Prototyping a Homebuilt Box

OK, here we go! I finally decided which one of the several crazy notions to prep for a lasercut layout: PSU in the pic is a stand in for the tiny little 1U unit scheduled for a Saturday delivery. 5.25" peripherals bay becomes available once I bolt all the new and pictured components in...

68kmla.org

That's the 3U prototype, the 2UBG3 is back on the rack awaiting left angle personality card riser development.

Implementing holes for ATX case standoffs sounds worth considering for reloaded development projects.

 

[adespoton]

I've seriously considered making my own Apple I - style case for some of my hardware. I've got the wood and the power tools to do it An all in one with an LCD and a lens would be kind of fun in maple.

 

[Jockelill]

@bigmessowires developed a laser cut plexi mini-case for his LC machines a while back:

Homemade Mini Case for LC, P475, Q605

Here's my entry in the "design a custom case" bonanza! Like Trash80toHP_Mini, I'm making a case for the LC series pizza-box computers, which also includes the Performa 475 and Quadra 605. It'll be just the logic board, power supply, and SCSI2SD for main storage. No fan. No floppy drive, but...

68kmla.org

If you want to re-case your boards in PC form factors, pick a case that has a removable Backplane panel for a Mac specific laser cut or printed unit.

I've been fooling around with plexi rackmount cases, a desktop or under desk rack could hold several Macs:

2UBG3 - Beige G3 2U Rackmount build - Prototyping a Homebuilt Box

OK, here we go! I finally decided which one of the several crazy notions to prep for a lasercut layout: PSU in the pic is a stand in for the tiny little 1U unit scheduled for a Saturday delivery. 5.25" peripherals bay becomes available once I bolt all the new and pictured components in...

68kmla.org

That's the 3U prototype, the 2UBG3 is back on the rack awaiting left angle personality card riser development.

Implementing holes for ATX case standoffs sounds worth considering for reloaded development projects.

The issue is finding a PC case that is screwed together... All I have found so far are riveted together. No issue since one could drill out the rivets and make a new back plane, but would be nice with something that actually is screwed together instead. I've seen some rack cases that are, but no desktop cases so far .

For my own silly RGB900 build I used a Phanteks XT View, but I'm not using the Nubus on that. If you have a PCI based ppc it should be fairly easy to fit the board into any ATX case that is a little flexible, like Lian Li and so on.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I've been casually nosing about for such a glassy display case for my bare PEx board.

Six slot boards require that slots and I/O panel be near the bottom. The ATX I/O panel is too narrow for most cases to work. Rivets for the backside of the case are all but ideal for a plexi replacement. Just countersink laser cut holes for flush fit or go all out with knurled handle bolts.

Recently found interesting open air setups that could be enclosed/protected fully with clear plexi panels:



Thinking in terms of showing off a black (or any pretty color) reloaded board. A NuBus slot panel would be enough. Love the spinning rust touch. Might be interesting to rack up a pair of Mac boards in such a setup?

 

[max1zzz]

I won't say much as it's still very much a work in progress but I am working on a ITX sized variation of the plus board that can be made with no original parts. Exactly what will and won't make it on the the board is going to depend largely on how much free board space I end up with after doing the basic layout

 

[Big Ben]

You didn’t said much, but you have all my attention.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I won't say much as it's still very much a work in progress but I am working on a ITX sized variation of the plus board . . .

That'd very much be a modernization of the HackIntosh/CatMac projects of yore!

Your IIcx board would be the perfect candidate for showing off your Rocket in the likes of that open air setup!

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Was just thinking about ATX PSU conversions. @max1zzz might you be able to build such right into an ATX form factor IIcx/Rocket launch pad remix? That open air case is calling me.

 

[Gothikon]

@Trash80toHP_Mini I like the phrase "remixed" i wasn't sure how clear the title was but in hindsight "How long until we see remixed mac motherboards?" would have been better

Rack mounting is definitely something I have in mind for the future, I've got a B&W G3 sitting next to me which has a few cracks in the case (to be fair I think these are stress related as they are all new case screws) and when the case does eventually die I'll be looking at rack mounting it, perhaps with a 90 degree riser on the video card to make it a bit slimmer.

A few people have mentioned needing space for expansion cards but I've a potentially controversial view on that

Here is where I'm coming from:

As a collector
- I like owning vintage hardware, a piece of history, the things you could never afford when they were new
- However, it takes up a lot of space, requires maintenance
- Many parts are destined to fail. Some are repairable e.g. recapping mobos, some can be replaced e.g. spinning disks, some are not i.e. case plastics with a few notable exceptions.

As someone who wants to USE vintage mac software I have a few options:

Emulation is reasonably good, and getting better but development is slow and handled by a very small number of people. At least they are all improving slowly...

One downside of emulators, and maybe it's just me, is it's easy to get distracted by all the other things running on the machine. Part of the appeal of the MiSTer is it's a dedicated device.

Side note: I'm currently pining my hopes on MAME. The CRT effects seem like a gimmick but combined with an adapted ADB keyboard it's remarkably close to using original hardware. Sadly there are several software compatibility issues including the Marathon series and it doesn't have a simple file sharing option like Basilisk II.

FPGAs sadly there is few options apart from @bigmessowires Plus Too core which was ported to the MIST and I believe is the basis of the Mac core on the MiSTer but it's quite limited given what the MiSTer is capable of. It'd be nice if there was at least a colour '030 option. Development seems to be progressing even slower the Mac emulators and slower than making replacements motherboards.

Original hardware See my earlier comments...

Crucial to my perspective, most of the 68k expansions cards and upgrades are completely irrelevant if you have a late model fast '040 with reasonable onboard video, built in ethernet, an SD card for storage, a modern PSU and > 32MB of RAM. This might be controversial and I'm sure there are some people who require certain hardware but I suspect they're the minority? Again, I completely understand the appeal from a collectors point of view (this is why I'll never sell my Voodoo 5!).

This is what brings me back to something like a remixed Performa 630 motherboard. It was one of the last and fastest 68k machines. As far as it's a relatively simple design, compared to all the machines with specialist chips that only appeared in on machine. If you want something significantly faster you may as well make the jump to a later PPC like a G3 or G4 and there shouldn't be much 68k software it couldn't run.

I think the closest I could get to my dream retro mac right now would either be an SE/30 with all new parts, or perhaps a rebuilt Performa 630 wedged in to a small rack mount HTPC style case or a used M1 Mac Mini dedicated to running MAME with an ADB keyboard.

So to round things out and keep the conversation going:
- What's your go to solution when you want to USE old Mac software?
- How many people are worried about their Macs disintegrating? If not what will you do when the case plastics go?
- Is nobody interested in a small footprint 68k compatible Mac made with new hardware?
- How much of a deal breaker would it be if you could run most 68k software but couldn't use your Nubus and PDS cards?

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

- How much of a deal breaker would it be if you could run most 68k software but couldn't use your Nubus and PDS cards?

Graphics card for a second, higher Resolution/Color Depth display is a must for me.

Disintegration of plastics is a major concern for everyone. Thankfully, printing parts is coming along nicely in terns of size and finish.

 

[max1zzz]

Was just thinking about ATX PSU conversions. @max1zzz might you be able to build such right into an ATX form factor IIcx/Rocket launch pad remix? That open air case is calling me.

The short answer is its possible, but not something I am looking to do currently. I'm focusing on the plus currently as it can be made with no original parts (All PAL's have been reverse engineered, the Sony sound has been reverse engineered and the way of bypassing the requirement for a IWM has been found) there are actually quite a few people who have built full on clones already using the above mentioned bits and my replica board layout

 

[Arbee]

Side note: I'm currently pining my hopes on MAME. The CRT effects seem like a gimmick but combined with an adapted ADB keyboard it's remarkably close to using original hardware. Sadly there are several software compatibility issues including the Marathon series and it doesn't have a simple file sharing option like Basilisk II.

The ZuluSCSI/BlueSCSI "toolbox" support in the most recent MAME versions gives pretty simple file sharing. Just run @saybur 's awesome ScuzEMU (https://github.com/saybur/scuzEMU) and you can upload/download files to the machine MAME's running on. It's not quite as seamless as Basilisk but it's really nice.

 

[adespoton]

BII has its own issues with file sharing, namely that the resource forks can have issues in some configurations, and people have this habit of trying to use files directly from the shared folder, or dragged to the desktop (in the shared folder) -- which obviously isn't going to work very well.

That said, I've recently seen some people reporting issues of transferring large files or file sets via ScuzEMU on MAME, so I guess there's always room for improvement. Best solution I've seen so far is MAME's virtual NuBus card for HFS partition images -- you can manipulate the contents via hfsutils or HFS-Fuse, and then mount the image on the guest (as well as on BII, SheepShaver, etc.).

I'm planning to push for ScuzEMU and NuBus HFS support in QEMU too, as it seems like it'd be a no-brainer on any hardware that supports SCSI. Of course, that leaves Mini vMac, BII and SheepShaver out, as none of them support SCSI. And it'd be neat to have ScuzEMU support in DingusPPC as well

 

[saybur]

That said, I've recently seen some people reporting issues of transferring large files or file sets via ScuzEMU on MAME, so I guess there's always room for improvement.

I'm not up to speed on MAME issue tracking but I'd be happy to look into this if it appears to be a utility-side bug. I confess testing on large files was not a priority during development, transfer speeds on real hardware are slow enough I was not expecting much use like that (obviously that calculus changes in an emulator).

Is there a particular spot where that was being reported?