Lombard Questions

[kkritsilas]

Hi,

Now that the Pismo is up and running, I have gone ahead and bought a working Lombard. While its not here yet, it is on its way, and I am looking to max it out, in terms of RAM, and afterwards install Tiger (I know its not officially supported, but Xpostfacto says it can be installed without issue). I have been reading up on the Lombard, and have some questions:

1. I did read somewhere that the Lombard has a maximum of 512 MB RAM on its two memory slots. However, the same place says that the memory modules must be "low density" 16 chip modules, and if 2, 4, or 8 chip modules are used, the Lombard will only recognize half of the installed memory. Is this always true (reason I ask is that the article was from a ways back, and things may have changed)?

2. I also understand that the Pismo and Lombard can use the same media bay devices (DVD ROM, CD ROM, ZIP drive, etc.). Does this also apply to the batteries? In other words, can I use a Pismo battery in a Lombard, and a Lombard battery in a Pismo?

3. Has anybody installed and used TIger on a Lombard? How was the install process and how does it run (I understand that this may depend somewhat on if there is an SSD installed and how much RAM is installed as well)?

 

[MacUp72]

I think you alternatively could buy 2x1GB of the more common pc133 modules.. the Lombard will only see half of it ( full 1 GB).
batteries, from my memory you can swap parts compatible from the Pismo downwards, but not upwards.

 

[kkritsilas]

Macup72: I have bought a pair of 512MB PC133 modules on eBay. They should be here soon. Even if they are only recognized at half their capacity, it will still max out the memory space of the Lombard.

A slightly different question: Does anybody know if the Lombard/Pismo ever had a floppy drive available? I know there are CD ROM drives, DVD ROM drives, ZIp drives, and even Blu-Ray drives, but was there ever a floppy drive available?

 

[avadondragon]

1. I did read somewhere that the Lombard has a maximum of 512 MB RAM on its two memory slots. However, the same place says that the memory modules must be "low density" 16 chip modules, and if 2, 4, or 8 chip modules are used, the Lombard will only recognize half of the installed memory. Is this always true (reason I ask is that the article was from a ways back, and things may have changed)?

The memory controller in the Lombard can only address up to 256 Mbit density chips which is the limitation. It can theoretically handle up to 1GB if you could manage to cram that many memory chips in the machine but unfortunately the practical maximum is 512MB with dual 16 chip SODIMMs.
Low density 256MB SODIMMs are usually pretty easy to find on eBay or elsewhere. PC133 is fine too. Just look for 16 chips and make sure it isn't too physically large.

3. Has anybody installed and used Tiger on a Lombard? How was the install process and how does it run (I understand that this may depend somewhat on if there is an SSD installed and how much RAM is installed as well)?

I run Tiger on a 300MHz PDQ (Wallstreet II) and it runs quite well with 512MB of RAM and an SSD. I had to use XPostFacto to install it of course.

A slightly different question: Does anybody know if the Lombard/Pismo ever had a floppy drive available? I know there are CD ROM drives, DVD ROM drives, ZIp drives, and even Blu-Ray drives, but was there ever a floppy drive available?

I'm pretty sure the Wallstreet/PDQ was the last machine to have a floppy option.

 

[MacUp72]

The memory controller in the Lombard can only address up to 256 Mbit density chips which is the limitation. It can theoretically handle up to 1GB if you could manage to cram that many memory chips in the machine but unfortunately the practical maximum is 512MB with dual 16 chip SODIMMs.
Low density 256MB SODIMMs are usually pretty easy to find on eBay or elsewhere. PC133 is fine too. Just look for 16 chips and make sure it isn't too physically large.

well, I was looking for these but wasnt sure if they were actual low density ones, its very specific. First I thought I'd keep an eye on double sided pc100/133 modules with 16 chips on it (which are quite rare and a bit expensive on their own), but this does not necessarily identify them as low density. I thought it is easier to just buy 2 GB pc133 and the system just recognises them half= 1GB maximum.

 

[avadondragon]

double sided pc100/133 modules with 16 chips on it (which are quite rare and a bit expensive on their own), but this does not necessarily identify them as low density.

If they are 256MB modules then having 16 chips will indicate that they are compatible. I had to go and check the developer notes and I was incorrect earlier - The Grackle memory controller only supports 128 Megabit chips not 256. So if you have 16 x 128Megabit chips you'll have a compatible 256Megabyte SODIMM. 'low density' just means 128Megabit chips in this case

Wow you're right those low density modules have gotten a lot harder to find. I did find one that's not too expensive though.
256MB PC100 100Mhz 144-pin 16 Chip Sodimm for PowerBook G3 Bronze KB/Lombard

If you wanted to get the full theoretically possible 1GB supported by the Grackle memory controller you would need quad ranked SODIMMs.

 

[avadondragon]

I thought it is easier to just buy 2 GB pc133 and the system just recognises them half= 1GB maximum.

I really want to know if that actually works. That would be awesome.

 

[kkritsilas]

Everything I have read says the Apple official maximum memory size is 384 MB. on Low End Mac, it says 512MB does work, and people do use 512MB without problems. This is where I found the note regarding low density modules.

 

[Phipli]

Everything I have read says the Apple official maximum memory size is 384 MB. on Low End Mac, it says 512MB does work, and people do use 512MB without problems. This is where I found the note regarding low density modules.

Apple's numbers are mostly "with currently available simms at time of launch" so don't mean much. Other sites often quote apple figures.

Truth is the best way of finding out is first hand experience of your own or someone who has actually tried. If you believed the internet you'd think the Performa 630 only took 36MB, instead of the 132MB.

 

[avadondragon]

Despite having the exact same memory controller with the same capabilities and limitations Apple's official max memory on the Wallstreet is only 192MB rather than the Lombard's 384MB. As Phipli said, Apple reports the spec at the time of launch and never updates it. Chips get physically smaller and more can be squeezed onto the memory chard later down the line.

It you stare at the dev notes long enough you can make an educated guess at what MIGHT be possible though. Grackle can handle 128Megabytes per bank with a total of 8 banks for 1,024Megabytes total possible. The trick is finding memory that is properly divide up in a way that the memory controller can address it - which requires many more hours of staring at datasheets. The easiest thing to do is just tell people to look for 256MB memory with 16 chips. If the 1GB SODIMMs are divided into 4 banks then a pair of them will more than likely work and give you the maximum 1GB possible.

Edit: To be clear I'm working partially from memory and trying to refresh myself by glancing at the dev notes. I think this last post is most accurate though.

 

[MacUp72]

everymac says that both, the 333 and the 400 Mhz model support *unofficially* 512MB.

Supports 144-pin PC100 SDRAM SO-DIMM memory modules.

Standard RAM

64 MB

Maximum RAM:

512 MB*

Details:

*Apple officially supports 384 MB of RAM in this model. However, third-parties have been able to upgrade it to 512 MB using two 256 MB memory modules.

 

[cheesestraws]

I think there's a conflict here between two meanings of the word "supported". First is "what is theoretically possible", and second is "what would Apple have accepted responsibility for making work". The former is a purely technical concern, and really purely a function of design; the second is organisational, and depends on a lot of things including what is feasible to test at the time of release.

 

[Phipli]

I think there's a conflict here between two meanings of the word "supported". First is "what is theoretically possible", and second is "what would Apple have accepted responsibility for making work". The former is a purely technical concern, and really purely a function of design; the second is organisational, and depends on a lot of things including what is feasible to test at the time of release.

Apple got sued because how RAM worked changed during the life of the early mac IIs (II, IIx) and ROM bugs also meant that it was practically impossible to get the promised 128MB of RAM once SIMMs became available. You needed ROM upgrades and Mode32 etc.

After that faff they stopped quoting the theoretical maximums and started quoting the supported values.

The issue is just that they aren't the hardware capable numbers, but people treat them like they are. For all practical purposes, their careful use of language aside, the Apple quoted figures are just irrelevant.

 

[kkritsilas]

I undestand all of tge proceeding posts, and have no argument with any of it, but want to raide two points:

1. On order to support 1GB of RAM, don’t you need 1 more address line? And do we know either way if that address line is present?

2. It is good to talk about theoreticals, but in tye real world, has anybody ever seen the type of memory module that can allow the 1GB maximum in a Lombard? If so, can some body posylt a link to it?

 

[avadondragon]

1. On order to support 1GB of RAM, don’t you need 1 more address line? And do we know either way if that address line is present?

2. It is good to talk about theoreticals, but in tye real world, has anybody ever seen the type of memory module that can allow the 1GB maximum in a Lombard? If so, can some body posylt a link to it?

If I'm reading things correctly in the dev notes it seem to hint that the address lines are there. But there is no guarantee. Quad ranked memory modules are listed as supported just not at that capacity. I suspect that is only because they didn't exist at the time of writing.

I only ever found one 1GB SODIMM that I could confirm was configured in a way that might work. It was too physically large to fit in the machine though. It was also obscenely expensive.

As far as I'm aware no one has ever managed to get 1GB working in a Lombard or WS/PDQ.

 

[s_pupp]

VST made a combined floppy/Superdisk drive for the Lombard. I recently scored a Goodwill find of a Lombard with with this drive installed. I have plenty of floppies and a few Superdisks, but haven’t played with the drive yet.

 

[MacUp72]

if the Lombard is the same internally as the Pismo RAM-wise, standard pc133 works, I've upgraded the Pismo with CSX 512 MB PC133..
but I guess the Lombard is not? Maybe you can buy 2 GB pc133 from a seller with guarantee, stick it in, and if it does not work, send it back?

 

[kkritsilas]

Lombard has a 66MHz system board, Pismo has a 100 MHz system board. I don't know if the Grackle memory controller is the same on both Lombard and Pismo; I suspect not. Others have said 133MHz will work fine on Lombard.

 

[just.in.time]

Having owned both and used Tiger on both a long time ago, I’d say the Pismo is the oldest/slowest powerbook that can still provide an excellent 10.4 experience. Tiger worked on the Lombard functionally, but not nearly as responsive or smooth in my experience. Guessing the system bus speed and GPU differences were the largest contributors to the difference in performance.

 

[MacUp72]

sorry, I meant 2x512 MB ..not 2x1GB ( I was thinking Pismo) ..I'd just give it a try (with money back guarantee). the old RAM is backwards compatible basically. (133 to 100 to 66)