Lisa Won't Boot. Advice?

[reject902]

Hey everyone.

So I did a little bit of searching on here first, but i'm still not quite sure where to start going with this.

Anyways, the lisa that we have won't boot. Here's what I've got:

It turns on, the power switch glows, no beeps from the speaker, the display shows a weird pattern (see attached image), and the floppy drive continually clicks like its trying to eject a disk.

Sooo. I tried booting it while removing things:

-No Memory Installed: Same boot up as above, no beeps, weird display, floppy clicks.

-No CPU installed: No beeps, floppy clicks, *no display* active however.

-No CPU or I/O installed: Lisa turns itself on and off repeatedly as soon as its plugged in. No beeps, floppy clicks, no display.

I've also tried disconnecting the floppy and obviously it still doesn't boot. I just don't have to listen to it click.

Any suggestions? I'm not sure where to go next. Could it just be a bad power supply? Or is this the sign of something bigger than that?

Any advice at all is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Andrew

 

[Nathan]

Possible read this PDF: http://www.mjposner.com/LISA.pdf (The Apple Lisa HandbooK). The fact that the floppy is clicking suggests that it expects to boot from a disk. Is there a difference between the clicks for disk access and those to eject? If you are comfortable opening the computer, you might hunt around for burn marks or bad solder joints with some kind of magnifying tool. Perhaps there is something wrong with the video circuit (unless that's some kind of diagnostic test pattern). Can you hook it up to a tv (if that isn't one) and if so does it make any difference? Possibly also check out this site: http://www.applerepairmanuals.com/lisa/ Especially this page: http://www.applerepairmanuals.com/lisa/lisatech/page10_11.html

Check out this quote from the bottom of that page (which is part of a whole section):

Automatic Startup Tests

Every time you turn on the Lisa, it runs an exhaustive series of tests in the following sequence:

ROM Checksum

If the ROM Checksum fails, the computer hangs. When the CRT warms up, the screen may appear blank or it may display random patterns. These symptoms indicate a problem with the ROM chips, which are on the CPU board at locations D13 and D14. There are several things to check before ordering new ROMs:

1. Make sure the chips are oriented correctly. The notches should be pointing up. There were several ROM versions. Someone could have tried to install new ROMs, put them in backwards, and given up at that point.

2. Make sure they're in the right sockets. If you have a stock Lisa with "H" ROMs, part number 341-0176-H should be in the socket at D14, part number 341-0175-H should be in the socket at D13. If you have a modified Lisa with "3A" ROMs, part

 

[Osgeld]

along with looking at the roms remove and re-seat them along with any other socketed chips, ya know standard old computer aggravation

always could drop it a couple feet :O

 

[reject902]

@Nathan: I just started to read over the links you provided. Thanks for your reply. I also plugged lisa into the back of my Macintosh TV at least I know the MacTV is working, lisa is not however. The video image is the same on the MacTV as it is to that on Lisa. I've attached another image to show what I'm getting. Also, the disk clicking, its more-less what I think is the drive continually ejecting. Cause the tray is moving up and down.

@Osgeld: I've tried pulling and reseating the H ROMS on the CPU board. Still no joy.

So should I rule power supply out?

I'm wondering if I have a bad CPU board or if the ROMs are bad.. I'm thinking if it was bad memory she'd still beep at me. But the I/O board should still be okay right? Seeing how with it inserted it does activate the display..

Thanks for all your advice guys!

-Andrew

 

[Nathan]

What happens if you yank the ROMs altogether? Does that result in nothing at all? If you have an alternate and compatible known working power supply, then try it, otherwise messing with that might be too risky a gamble. It might be worth searching for the power supply's spec'd output and using a multimeter (if you have one, if you don't they're not terrible expensive -- maybe $15-20 for a decent one) to check that the proper voltages are supplied.

Are the ROM ICs pins or the socket pins dirty or anything like that? If there are test points, little plated drilled holes along a pcb trace, you could test continuity of the traces that lead to the socket (check at the solder points of the socket and inside the socket where the IC pins go). You might also want to examine and check the video circuits of the board for the sake of thoroughness. I don't know a whole lot about this stuff, but that looks like a definitely designed test pattern. Although there might be some sync issues, if anyone who knows more wants to comment feel free. The pattern doesn't look perfectly straight and clear to me.

As for the CPU, I think that the fact that it beeps and shows video when the CPU is in means that it (the CPU) is most likely working. If you have a spare working one, it might be worth a test. Best of luck with your troubleshooting.

 

[reject902]

If the ROM are pulled out instead of the weird pattern, the display in just grey, with a few horizontal lines running through it. Sadly right now I don't have another power supply to test her out on. I'm going to see if I can find my multimeter in my garage and test the output. I've checked the pins, they all seem pretty clean. Solder joints look decent too.

She isn't making any beeps either.

:-/

 

[H3NRY]

I believe Lisa uses fonts stored in RAM, so unless the CPU is running properly and power on self test completes, the screen will be filled with a random pattern which won't move, that is it won't roll, flicker, or tear like an old TV with misadjusted horiz & vert controls. If the screen is stable, then probably power is OK, the I/O board is at least partially functional, and the CPU is not running. CPU problems can be bad ROMs, chip pins oxidized in their sockets, chips loose in their sockets, failed capacitors, etc. If seating all the chips into sockets and looking for evidence of leaking goo from any parts doesn't turn up anything, then you will probably need to troubleshoot it by substituting known good parts. The floppy drive almost certainly will need a cleanup and lubrication at its age. The computer is old enough that it would be pretty remarkable if it DID run.

Since nearly all Lisas were converted to Mac XLs, an original Lisa is more interesting to historians, because very few people have seen Lisa software, and how it differs from Macintosh.

 

[Mars478]

Why is there A Macintosh TV in that picture?

 

[Osgeld]

I also plugged lisa into the back of my Macintosh TV

 

[reject902]

Why is there A Macintosh TV in that picture?

I needed a alternative video source to plug her into to test it. The Macintosh TV was in my kitchen right where I was testing her. So it only made sense.

Well the image does roll, slowly. So the power supply still could be the culprit I guess? I'm going to try testing the output today. Sadly if that is the case she'll need to be sitting awhile til I can round up the parts.

 

[Nathan]

Both futurlec.com and jameco.com claim to sell a DIP version of the Motorola 68000 (m68k) for $7 and $10 respectively. Little pricey, but it's old technology.

 

[reject902]

Hey guys,

So i know this is a 2 year old thread now, but after shelving the project for years I've actually started back up and made some progress.

So I finally got around to replacing the ROMs in the unit along with the Video PROM and have been able to get the machine to start up. It makes a few beeps, and with a Hard Drive installed says "Loading". The problem with it now is the CRT looks like a TV with bad horizontal and vertical adjustments. It flickers and rolls a ton, and says "Loading" in about three different places. I plugged her in to a TV and found the video out appears on my set as a single horizontal bar that takes up about have of my TV screen filled with what looks like garbage.

Any ideas as to what I should be looking into next?

Thanks!

Internal CRT



Composite out to TV

 

[CelGen]

What you are getting from the video out is identical to mine. The lisa DOES output a composite video signal however the sync is wrong. Everything I threw at it from Sony studio displays to capture cards simply would not sync properly.

If I can remember, three short beeps is good and if you see LOADING then chances are you got exactly that.

Second, while you got it trying to boot, the old 400K Sony drives have their lube gum up with age so it's best to clean as much as you can off and regrease it.

The analog board has several adjustment pots for the screen. You can reach them once you take the top off.

I also recommend you recap the PSU. They are old, they didn't have the best ventilation thanks to Steve they have no fan. It's pure gain of you do it. The polyesters have a habit too of making a hell of a lot of smoke.

 

[reject902]

Thanks for the response CelGen. I read something somewhere about spraying the pots with contact cleaner to try to remedy it. I may give that a try.