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Invalid key length = what exactly?

Concorde1993

Well-known member
as part of their "Fireball" line
Yep, that's the name of the other two Quantum drives I own. I have version 3.5- if that's of any significance.

I have a unshielded sub-woofer 4 feet from my Mac.
I would move it, as it is likely causing some sort of interference with your iMac. From what I have heard, the RF shield in these CRT iMacs are not that great. I dunno...the styling is there, but the engineering...well let's face it- the engineers were asleep when the iMac was in the production stage.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
This may not be the best place for it, but "discussion about the state of storage technologies, reliability, and what you can do to protect your data" has been initiated.

Screw SATA. How about we return to reliability?
That's called "SAS disks in an array" and it costs a LOT of money. Like, so much. HP sells 300GB SAS disks for $330, and newegg has a 500gb seagate SAS/6g disk listed for $124 but I suspect that that's near-line sas, or sata with a sas connector. Even if you trust that Seagate disk to be what it is, right next to a 146gb Lenovo SAS disk for a few bucks more, that's still a quarter the space of the 2TB sata disks I'm about to mention, for more money. (Not so much more in this case that you would purchase two SATA disks for the price of one SAS disk, but you could pretty easily buy three of the SATA disks for the cost of three of those SAS disks and have like four times the storage available in your three-disk RAID 5 setup.)

Reasonably performing 2TB sata disks cost $120 each and every single modern PC can take two of them and mirror them and a utility like Acronis Drive Monitor can tell me when to replace one or both. (ADM is free and runs on Windows XP or newer. If you have a Windows PC and aren't already monitoring disk health, please download it.)

For this amount of money you might get a single SAS disk. (like that 300GB HP sas disk, I am pretty sure that the Seagate one is not actually SAS)

... That and solid state drives. SSDs had a bad rep for awhile but since like 2008, the newest SSDs around (even the budget ones) are capable of pretty much running 24/7, rewriting the whole drive constantly (or at least ten times per day) for like fifty or so years before they'd actually die.

Realistically, SATA and new sata-compatible drives are probably going to be around for quite awhile, and I can get huge, massive amounts of storage for relatively low prices. In light of this, it does not really bother me that much that a few of my disks will die each year, especially given that all of my data lives on modern systems that either have OSs with backup tools built in (Leopard+, Vista+) or have some of the inexpensive backup tools available. (I prefer Acronis TrueImage on my Windows systems, works great for XP and newer, and the boot CD works well for any Windows machine that can boot from CDs.)

The question that I see it as is "for any given unit of storage, would you rather pay huge sums up front for something "quality" that might last a long time, or would you rather pay so little that you can justify getting two or three to run in a raid1 or raid5 fashion or so you can justify buying and using some other backup media?

One final note about disks and "quality" and "longevity" is that hard disks have always been inordinately delicate, annoying little devices, and always the technology we use to build them is getting better. It may seem like an unreasonable proposition to buy a 1tb or 2tb disk, but it's so inexpensive right now. When I had my first "new" computer, an Athlon 700 back in the year 2000, it would have been quite a lot of money to get a second disk in there, so I more or less just blindly trusted that the machine wouldn't go bottom-up, or that if I had any data that was important, ht would fit on zip100 or floppy diskettes, and that my [relatively] early CD-R disks wouldn't die.

These days, I, a university student with a fairly modest job, can afford not only to keep all of my digital life handy, and more or less never have to delete anything, but I can afford to back it up on other spinning hard disks or onto little pieces of solid state flash media, or onto the newest/fanciest optical media.

And this capability can be fairly reasonably added to any Mac or PC with USB and/or PCI slots that also happens to run a fairly modern OS. (So I'd say 2002 or later, but that's mainly for the bluray bit.)

If your data is important, there's no very good reason not to be treating it like it is.

... All of that having been said, hopefully the new disk for that iMac works well.

Also just a quick note about iMacs: The G3 iMacs pretty much can't have been productive during their productive lifecycles and still in good condition, just due to pretty poor cooling systems. Most computer parts can withstand heat, but iMacs, as per my understanding, produced so much heat and had no real way to get rid of it, that these days any survivors are just a mess inside. It's a shame too because they can be seen as the revival of the AIO form factor and maybe more importantly, the revival of Apple. I wouldn't even mind having one around but you'd need to spec out one pretty well to make it useful enough just to run the Microsoft RDP client, which is [unfortunately?] the only way I'd probably want to run one -- as an access device for a Windows 7 VM on my server. (Although that would be a badass way to use one, or a lab of them, especially if you already had the lab and were like "let's get some Windows 7 up on in here!" -- just put RDP file shortcuts on the desktops. Although it would be so much more energy efficient to use some kind of modern thin client and an LCD display.)

 

Concorde1993

Well-known member
produced so much heat and had no real way to get rid of it, that these days any survivors are just a mess inside.
They do draw out some heat. If you were to touch the top of the so-called "carrying handle," you would feel an almost scalding sensation on your hand, or finger (heat is being dispersed through the top via holes in the carrying-handle). There are also convection air-holes at the bottom of the unit, so it's wise to keep it tilted upwards for more heat to dispense. Supposedly, the Bondi blues had a built-in cooling fan of some sort installed at the bottom, but from what I hear, these didn't do an adequate job of cooling the system, and were removed when the G3-series iMacs were introduced.

Again, this is another example of Jobs' engineering at its best. To hell with practicality- focus solely on design/elegance to woo customers/critics, and when the unit does fail (shortly after the warranty coverage has expired) force the customer to upgrade to a newer iMac, and dispose of the old one (as its too costly to have it inspected professionally, and a pain in the ass to repair manually).

In my opinion, the 5200+ series Macs had it right (for the most part, anyway). The logic board was easy to remove (simply remove two screws in the back, and carefully slide out the board) in order to perform necessary hardware upgrades without the fear of being zapped by the CRT, and it had an adequate cooling system to avoid extreme thermal expansion of the plastics to the point where they begin to crack upon years of stress.

The first-gen iMacs may be better looking than the old 5200 Power Macs, but they were poorly built, unfortunately.

 

MacJunky

Well-known member
Supposedly, the Bondi blues had a built-in cooling fan of some sort installed at the bottom, but from what I hear, these didn't do an adequate job of cooling the system, and were removed when the G3-series iMacs were introduced.
Every tray loading iMac has a fan in it. That is Rev A-D, Bondi, Blueberry, Tangerine, Grape, Strawberry, Lime. It was a 90mm fan I think.. Just one size up from 80mm but if you have a round file(like the ones used to sharpen chainsaw blades by hand) you can make an 80mm fit as I recall.
You pull out the mobo chassis/carrier thingy and it is right there under the rear of the CRT. You can then take out two screws to remove it's cage. I cannot remember what sort of connector it uses though but I *think* I recall having to lop off an old one and attach it to the new fan.

Please note the direction that the fan pushes air in before replacing it with something else or even just removing it. (I have not reversed one myself, but would prefer to avoid it because it just seems like a bad idea.)

 

John Hokanson Jr.

Well-known member
The biggest problems with the G3 iMacs are the PAV board and the internal plastics. Both are punished by the heat and tend to fail eventually in the case of the former, or become brittle in the case of the later (especially the slot loads). Some enterprising individuals might take the time to replace or repair the PAVs, but I would imagine G3 iMacs will become increasingly rare over time.

On the plus side, the logic boards are decent. I rarely hear of failure on that end, and G3s usually run pretty cool.

 

Concorde1993

Well-known member
Every tray loading iMac has a fan in it.
I'm aware of that. I just mention the Bondi blue as it was the original iMac model, which happened to have a built-in cooling fan. But yes, you are correct. All tray-loading Macs had the fan up until the G3 slot-loaders.

G3s usually run pretty cool.
I haven't run into an issue with overheating yet, as I keep my Graphite adequately distanced from other items that may cause a cooling blockage in the convection setup (and it's located in a relatively cool area). But I'm sure someone here has managed to destroy their CRT iMac in that manner.

 

iMac600

Well-known member
My iMac G3 overheated pretty badly earlier on in its life. The cooling wasn't obstructed, but the drive in it ran hot and the machine was positioned in direct sunlight for a lot of its life (being a former education system). It also had the usual wear and tear from school kids, coin in the optical drive, pins in the speakers, all that.

The PAV was toasted. System would power up but couldn't sustain a constant voltage to the Cathode Ray Tube, so it had this nice dimming and then suddenly over-brightening effect that got worse with age.

I ended up changing out the PAV Board, CRT, Hard Disk, Speakers, Internal Frame (which was baked and cracked) and Optical Drive. It's not actually the same iMac anymore, with only a few parts remaining from the original system, including the lower EM shield, the drive cage, the logic board, down converter and the Graphite plastics. Now some of the graphite plastics need to be replaced.

Bah. Time to let it go I think.

Strangely the Tray Loader iMac, which was known for heat issues even more than the Slot Loader, has always been a more solid machine in every case i've come across one. They do heat up, but I don't often see one with power issues, the cases are stronger, the plastics last longer. Drive mechanisms don't fail as often. The Slot Loader may have been a refinement of the original design (as Steve Jobs suggested) but it was a major step backward overall when it came to the engineering.

As for the OPs issue... I can almost guarantee that the hard disk was failing considering the sudden nature of the fault. Good move on opting for replacement.

 

Concorde1993

Well-known member
I ended up changing out the PAV Board, CRT,
How much did it cost to replace the CRT, or did you use a working CRT from a donor unit?

I'm debating whether I should liberate my Graphite by performing the necessary repairs (it works in its current state- but I am not impressed with the quality of the internal plastics). Regardless of whether I decide to go with it, I would still like to know how to swap/remove the CRT in the first-gen iMacs.

 

iMac600

Well-known member
Ended up swapping the CRT/PAV out of a donor iMac. I didn't end up swapping the parts individually, I just removed the parts connected to the donor iMac's internal frame, leaving just the speakers, CRT, PAV and frame still attached, then built it up to completion with all the parts from the Graphite. Not sure how to change just the CRT, but i'd imagine it would require disassembling the system to the point of exposing the PAV board, removal of the PAV board (which requires discharging) and then the CRT assembly should be affixed to the face plate with 4 screws. That's just a guess though.

 

JAG

Well-known member
I remember back in the day people converting iMac logic boards into headless 1U rackmount servers.

Just a thought for people with dead CRT's who want to use the machine as a server or such.

(not that it would make financial sense with PPC Mac Mini's being so cheap)

 

iMac600

Well-known member
I don't think financial sense has ever come into play on the 68k Macintosh Liberation Army. Wouldn't be as fun if it did. :lol:

 

Concorde1993

Well-known member
I don't think financial sense has ever come into play on the 68k Macintosh Liberation Army.
The vintage computers I've received (both Apple & Commodore) were either free from my school, or purchased in a lot bundled with another computer, various operating software, or peripherals. I've never spent more than $60 on a single conquest (with the exception of my Quicktake 200- that came to just under $70 with shipping), and I've always received more than half of what I spent on a conquest when I've sold off a computer I no longer required, or did not want to repair (i.e., my 89 Plus with the faulty power supply. I purchased it for $60 in July 2009- it came with a Jasmine Direct 80 SCSI drive, which died a few weeks after purchasing it due to bad sectors which had developed, an ImageWriter II, a USRobotics 56k modem, a generic carrying bag, software, keyboard/mouse. I ended up selling just the unit to a collector for $40 who required a replacement logic board last year).

I'll give you another example. There was a fellow about 40 kilometers from me that had an Apple III for sale. It came with the original III monitor- no other peripherals, software, etc. The III did not work- there was a RAM error of some sort, and it was in rough cosmetic shape. Naturally, it would have been a great unit to liberate, but I could not justify the $75 the owner was asking for ($40 was my final offer). I think someone ultimately ended up purchasing it, as I do not see it advertised on Kijiji anymore (or the seller decided to keep it).

Personally, I would invest my money in repairing the unit, as opposed to giving some wingnut more than what it's actually worth, and end up bitching about it later. :beige:

 

iMac600

Well-known member
Last 68k I worked on, I spent $20 to purchase it and then $100 in parts to actually fix it. Most expensive vintage computer i've ever owned, but the results were fantastic considering.

These days I don't regret it, but I don't really care about it either.

 
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