Invalid key length = what exactly?

[John Hokanson Jr.]

The other day I was playing around on my G3 iMac (see sig), and the Finder suddenly goes crazy; repeatedly saying that it needs my attention. It then flashes an error about not having a valid system folder. Unable to do anything, I hard reset, and sure enough it can't find a system to mount.

I boot from the OS 9 install CD, and when running Disk First Aid it claims that my boot partition has an "Invalid Key Length" and that it is unable to repair this error. The Finder also claims that I need to initialize (format) the drive for it to be usable.

The good news is that my work partition seems to be salvagable, as it can be read. Proving that partitioning is smart.

The bad news is I'll have to reinstall all my applications and the OS.

My question is this: Given the fact that this is the original 20GB hard drive for this iMac (10+ year old Seagate U Series 5, with Apple logo), and this came on so sudden, is it reasonable to conclude that I should get a new HD and put this one out to pasture? Conventional wisdom has it that Disk Warrior can fix these problems sometimes, but I am wondering if it's worth getting a copy for this particular problem.

I have a sneaky suspicion this drive is failing. As in physically failing. 10 years sounds about right for HD life. However, maybe this could have happened for other reasons.

 

[Concorde1993]

Given the fact that this is the original 20GB hard drive for this mac (10+ years old), and this came on so sudden, is it reasonable to conclude that I should get a new HD and put this one out to pasture?

Hard drives are a dime a dozen, and vary greatly in terms of lifespan. The Lacie 40 meg HD in my SE is still going strong after 23 years (this is the original drive, btw), as well as the Seagate ST-225N in my Apple SC20, which is about 25 years old. In contrast, the 320GB Hitachi Travelstar drive in my 6 month old MBP died about a month after receiving it (this was a replacement laptop from Apple). Although Hitachi drives are fairly reliable, this one was clearly a lemon. The one I have now (another Hitachi 320GB) works perfectly. So you can see where I am going with this.

Getting back to the G3, as an owner of a 2001 Graphite, the 60GB HD (which is the original, btw) makes a hell of a lot of noise, and sometimes fails to boot the OS (I have been contemplating that the System Folder is corrupt, however the loud noise and occasional "clunking" sound is a good indication that this drive is on its way out- not much of a loss since I have no documents/other personal information saved on that drive). I would recommend replacing the drive, not just because of the issues you have been having with the Finder, but because of all of the stress that the drive has gone through over the past decade due to extreme heat buildup (these CRT iMacs have a very poor convection cooling system- even the Bondi blues with the built-in fan do a lousy job in keeping the unit adequately cool). For a replacement HD, I would recommend a 5400 RPM drive either from Western Digital (Seagate, I hear, is pretty lousy nowadays), or from Hitachi. Or simply get an external USB drive, and boot the OS from there, which will eliminate the problem of removing the HD from the iMac.

Just my $0.02

 

[John Hokanson Jr.]

Yeah, I figured as much. Thanks for the confirmation.

Interesting enough, when I pulled the drive (I edited my post with the specs) it was only slightly warm. I'm not sure the HD gets terribly hot in these things. The drive bracket is under the CRT, and the heat rises. I bought this iMac from Mike Richardson's store, and he told me most of his iMacs came from schools. Some snotnose kid also damaged the internal speakers so that they buzz a lot. I need to get replacements. Other than that, it's been pretty reliable.

 

[John Hokanson Jr.]

I found two possible replacements. A 120GB Seagate U Series 9 (7200), and a 120GB Maxtor Diamondmax (5400).

Both are refurbs available from Operator Headgap for $50 shipped. The owner swears that the a 7200 drive will be fine because they "run cool." The IDE controllers in these macs can also take up to 128GB just fine.

Thoughts?

 

[Concorde1993]

The owner swears that the a 7200 drive will be fine because they "run cool."

The owner's statement is somewhat valid, as newer 7200 HDs made in the past couple of years do run cooler than their predecessors from the 90s/early 2000s. There are a couple of threads on other forums where people claimed to have installed 7200 RPM drives in their CRT iMacs, and have had no issues with overheating thus far.

http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=523863

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=78132

http://discussions.info.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1903359&tstart=105

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=57824

Regardless, I would just play it safe, and stick with the 5400. The components in these iMacs are already fragile enough.

 

[MacJunky]

Running a 7200 RPM HDD is fine. The 80 and 120 that were being used in an SL iMac here are still running ok(the 120 is the only samsung drive in the house still alive, the other three in various other cooler machines died premature deaths). The iMac is toast, but then so is another one that only ever was stock. That iMac was on 24/7 for 8-9 years and was regularly doing some reasonably heavy work until the mid point of it's life, not sure about the stock one though.

There is no way to preserve an iMac without leaving it off most of the time. It just does not work. You are better off replacing the bulging caps on the PAV and replacing the CRT when it gets burnt than trying to 'save' it with a 5400RPM drive.

Optionally undervolt a few small fans and arrange them around the handle inside the case blowing out. The reduced voltage will keep noise low but still move more air than with no fans.

 

[Concorde1993]

You are better off replacing the bulging caps on the PAV and replacing the CRT when it gets burnt

That must be a real pain in the ass to replace those components. Has anyone here ever attempted that? I ask since my Graphite's screen has severe burn-in after a decade of intense use from the admin down at the ICT.

 

[MacJunky]

Has anyone here ever attempted that? I ask since my Graphite's screen has severe burn-in after a decade of intense use from the admin down at the ICT.

iMacs are not really worth the trouble unless you *really* love it. And if you really love it make sure it's internal plastic is in good shape(or you can source a good part) before spending the time.
Also be careful with the headphone jacks on the front, apple mounted them stupid and you can damage the traces leading too (right beside) the solder joints with extreme use.(or retards abusing them)

 

[Concorde1993]

iMacs are not really worth the trouble unless you *really* love it.

It sounds like these old CRT iMacs are going to be long forgotten in the next decade, or so, since no one seems to be motivated enough to replace any of the major failing components (hard drives, and RAM upgrades aside). I guess this will be a significant upside for those that own a "pristine" condition iMac, as the value of their unit is surely going to increase.

make sure it's internal plastic is in good shape(or you can source a good part) before spending the time.

The plastics on my Graphite are ok, although there has been some cracking on the white strip (which is located inside the unit) due to heat. I documented this on a thread back in October, so all of the details/pics are posted there.

I wonder if the eMacs are easier to work on. They surely look, and feel more durable than their G3 predecessors.

 

[MacJunky]

I have a fairly decent example of a snow 600 that I stuck a ruby case on(both snow and ruby picked up from a school a couple years ago). >_> It was mostly because I could, I do not actually do anything with it. I am tempted to stick an LCD into it for the lulz but it would still be too slow and limited for nice OS X or OS 9 use.(this is in comparison to my PMG4 for OS X and Beige G3 for OS 9, both upgraded with nice things including AT and ATX cases :rambo: ) It would be nice if Apple made 'Ruby' and 'Grape' DA&QS cases. That would be cool. (but then I would be restricted to using a limited cramped apple case. :/ I just cannot win.)

Working in iMacs and eMacs is not hard it can just get annoying having to take the whole damn thing apart to get at a small part that should have been designed to come out more easily.

However, pickup a service manual and you are set if you have some time.

There will always be people who want to refit iMacs as well. If in 10-20 years time I wanted a G3 Mac I would go for a PowerMac 100% of the time. But I guess that is just me.

 

[John Hokanson Jr.]

When the PAV board or flyback transformer on this thing finally goes, I will probably pull all the useful parts and junk it. There are rather detailed instructions on the net on how to fix the CRT-related parts, but it seems like more of a problem then it's worth. Mine is in reasonable condition, but it has some scratches I'd like to polish out. Plus I broke the (plastic) front clips that help guide the bottom on. This seems fairly common, and they are fortunately hidden. Some people seem to have the magic touch when it comes to disassembling these things. I am pretty ham fisted I guess.

 

[John Hokanson Jr.]

BTW, funny you should mention Samsung... I just bought a used Samsung Spinpoint P80 last night. 7200 rpm, and 120GB. $35 shipped. Some casual research shows that these were excellent drives for their day in terms of reliability, noise, and heat (18.9 degrees C). Should also see a performance boost over the 5400 rpm Seagate.

 

[techknight]

These days, just about every HDD manufacturer has issues with drives.

they are all scaling back on the amount of metals they use and materials, at the same time, going up in density, to keep overall cost down.

also means reliability goes poofer.

 

[John Hokanson Jr.]

Agreed. They don't quite make 'em like they used to unless you want super expensive (relative to consumer grade) drives designed for server use.

Some of the best drives I had were old, small, and slow designs made by companies that don't even exist anymore under their original names. Remember Connor? Or Shugart?

One of the best was an 850MB WD Cavair I owned. It only was 4400 RPM and high profile, but it kept going, and going, and going... It doesn't surprise me in the least that a lot of late 80s and early 90s Mac HDDs are still going strong.

Somebody told me that if you can get 3-5 years out of a modern HDD you should consider yourself lucky. Bleah. That crap would *NOT* fly back when HDDs were super expensive. Screw SATA. How about we return to reliability?

 

[techknight]

not if CHINA has a sayso in it.

 

[Concorde1993]

not if CHINA has a sayso in it.

Agreed. The days of "Made in the USA" or "Made in Japan" are long gone. Nobody cares about quality (only cost), and then you have consumers complain 2 or 3 years down the road (or sooner) why their product malfunctions all the time, etc.

Some people have made the transition to SSD drives. Although I've only had two traditional platter drives go bust on me since I started computing over a decade ago (a Jasmine Direct 80 drive in 2009, and that Hitachi 320GB drive last year), I would ultimately like to make the transition to SSD, as I too am not impressed with the quality of traditional hard drives manufactured today. A hard drive one of the most important components in a computer, and as such should be manufactured properly. However, you have to look at the economics of production/distribution, as well as the devastating effects a not-prone-to-failure drive would have on the service industry to find your answer as to why things are assembled the way they are.

In regards to the China factor, not every product I've owned from China has been a dud. My Canon i560 bubblejet (which I had for 7 years) worked perfectly up until the print heads no longer functioned, and I couldn't justify the $50 plus tax replacement for the heads, considering the cost of the printer was $99 when purchased new in 2004. Then there's my Visioneer PaperPort VX scanner (also made in China), which is about 14 years old, and still scans documents with great precision. Maybe these were one of the few products that were actually manufactured properly, or I know how to maintain my products well beyond their production cycle.

Speaking of forgotten manufacturers- does anyone here remember Quantum? I haven't seen a new Quantum drive in about 6 years, so I am under the assumption they filed for bankruptcy, or merged with another manufacturer.

 

[John Hokanson Jr.]

Quantum was bought out by Maxtor in the late 90s, or so. IBM also sold their disk drive division to Hitachi.

Quantum was pretty decent, although never a serious performer.

IBM was almost universally hated. Especially the Deathstars... err... Deskstars.

The Seagate I pulled out of my iMac says "Made in China." Go figure.

 

[Concorde1993]

Quantum was bought out by Maxtor in the late 90s, or so. IBM also sold their disk drive division to Hitachi.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

Quantum was pretty decent, although never a serious performer.

I currently have three Quantum drives- a blank 80 meg ProDrive ELS model (with the Apple logo circa 1992), a 4GB drive for my G3 B&W tower, and another 4GB for my Win 98 tower. I need to check the model name for the other two, but they all still work (although the one for my G3 is finicky- sometimes it boots to the desktop - while other times I hear it stop when spinning up, and the computer hangs). All three were made in Japan.

The Seagate I pulled out of my iMac says "Made in China." Go figure.

I'm not surprised by that in the least. But I haven't had any of my Seagate drives (both vintage & modern) fail on me yet, so I'm pretty grateful in that regard.

 

[John Hokanson Jr.]

Quantum's engineering quality was fine. It was their marketing that was retarded. They would sell 4200 rpm drives as part of their "Fireball" line and it gave people the wrong impression.

BTW, the thought crossed my mind that I have a unshielded sub-woofer 4 feet from my Mac. Any possibility that could have something to do with this? It would have to be a pretty stong magnetic field... but I wonder. Only one partition got messed up, so I'm kinda doubtful. Hmmmmm...