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IIgs Networking Boot Disk

raoulduke

Well-known member
Well... the basic question was how do I fit networking onto an 800k disk when I keep getting space errors. I may have been trying to install the wrong version, though. It seems the correct version is not Appleshare but Appleshare, 3.5 Disk (which in hindsight makes perfect sense but was not obvious to me).

I think one can read these instructions and sort of drop off before the actual remote boot. Having said that, for whatever reason using his instructions the farthest I've gotten is to an Appleshare extension during the load screen. But I can't actually boot into the GUI.

gsboot.jpg

 
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Elfen

Well-known member
Try taking the picture with a slower shutter speed and a smaller aperture if those options  are changeable on the digi-cam, and then with a Pic Fixer, rotate the image to the right 90 degrees.

As I remember GS-OS, it was more like Mac System 6 and allowed Apple/Local Talk through the printer serial port. It was control-able through a control panel. There was limited Ethernet Cards for the II+/IIe and each with their own drivers, how they talked to the GS-OS I do not know.

There were IDE and SCSI Hard Drive cards for the IIGS, and many used them to connect a hard drive and put on the GS-OS on it and add to it those functions you need to it like AppleShare. 800K is not enough for everything and GS-OS with it.
 

raoulduke

Well-known member
Well so that's sort of my issue.  With 1mb of RAM and a max 800k swappable disk, I'd actually rather use a RAM disk - I have my eye on SCSI too but my gut tells me I'm too cheap currently.  So my question was really more can one fit the base system and Appletalk/Share onto an 800k disk.
 

Because I'd rather only keep minimum boot req's on a disk and run everything off the network.  I seriously thought about buying a mem expander (interesting sidenote; it is not (currently on eBay) cheaper to buy a 256k card and populate it as compared to just buying a 1mb card) and use like a 1.5mb RAM disk [1mb built in].

 
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Elfen

Well-known member
I would see which is cheaper and easier to get. There were 1MB (and I remember seeing a 16MB though it might have 2 or 3 boards running together) boards for the IIgs, most of the time loaded up 1/2 the RAM and then you had to fill in the rest.

 

raoulduke

Well-known member
My inference from mostly browsing pictures on eBay is - and you're right there for sure are 4 (and :cool: mb memory cards, but most have a very different design than the Apple cards, and so it's not simply an issue of populating.  I have wondered about actually changing the chips, but I've found it hard to find documentation.

As to price, the cheapest eBay 256k seems to run about $16 and 1mb seems to run about $25.  Populating the 256k to 1mb [24 additional chips] was I think $13 through Alibaba. 

WHOA!  Wait, there's this though.  Doesn't that look like it just accepts some type of standard SIMM?  That's pretty interesting.  I can't find the documentation they allude to, though.

 
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raoulduke

Well-known member
Well so I'm wondering which 8mb one can swap in...  I get the impression 8 is the limit (8 is enough?) but I could be wrong.

Additionally, I think one would need to modify the card - at least adding two of those other chips; not sure about the resistors.

 
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Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
I think I lost the plot here, what is it you are trying to accomplish? Do you have an Appleshare Server set up and you're trying to install GS/OS on it to allow netbooting later (which is what the article is about) or are you trying to create a one floppy boot-to-the-gui-with-network-enabled system disk? If it's the latter, well, no, you can't really do that.

 

raoulduke

Well-known member
Yeah... the latter...  That's disappointing.  So is what you're saying that his 3.5 Appleshare option is really only for netbooting?  Because that would probably explain why the Desktop won't open.

 

raoulduke

Well-known member
That cites to this. I found the other's organization honestly hard to follow. I found this most helpful even though it's for System 5.0.

* Prep: I am not sure if System 6.0.1 is compatible with all machines. You need 4 DD 3.5" floppy disks - format one as ProDOS and use DiskDup+ [which is Shareware] to make 3 GSOS install disks: Install, System Tools 1, and System Tools 2. And you need some way to manipulate those disks with GCR, the easiest way of which is having a bridge Mac. You need to set your Mac AppleShare server up, which in my case with 7.5.3 requires adding the IIgs's name as a user before you login with that name on your IIgs (I forget if that's true of 8+).

* Boot with Install in the main drive and your blank disk in the other. Go to customize, install at a minimum "AppleShare, 3.5 Disk"; I also install "File System: HFS FST" because my server's folder is in HFS. However, I do not know if that is necessary. [You cannot actually fit "AppleShare, 3.5 Disk"/"AppleShare" and "*System 6: 800k Disk", so you cannot actually install System 6, hence no actual Finder/Desktop - just a Launcher. Don't worry about the AppleShare warning, click "Perform Update" and get ready to swap some disks.

After it's done installing, hit quit, and then probably reinsert your Install disk. Cancel out of the Launcher, and go to File>Shutdown>Restart. Boot from the boot disk and, when it prompts, enter an "Administrator Name". You will then boot into that Launcher again [i think I just gave up there too early before].

* Cancel out of the launcher and press *Cmd-Ctrl-Esc* to launch the "Desk Accessories". Select "Control Panel" then "Slots". If Rom 1 (or 0?) set Slot 7 to AppleTalk; if Rom 3 set either Slot 1 or 2 to AppleTalk. Quit the "Slot" settings, the "Control Panel", and then restart (through File>Shutdown>Restart).

* It will boot back into that launcher; cancel again. Go to "Control panels" under the "Apple Menu" and double click "AppleShare" (or select it and click "Open"). Select and open your server and then enter your "Name" and "Password" (if you set one) based on the user name you set up earlier on your Mac. Then select any folders you want and hit okay.

The one annoying thing I alluded to earlier is that this method of file management prevents the use of an actual Finder. I tried writing an "Easy Update" disk but you can't run both simultaneously. Since you need the actual ProDOS files you need Disk Copy images (.dsk, or additional software), so I found a 400mb .dsk archive that I'm downloading to my 1gb stock Performa 5400 HD. And that will now be my Apple II server.

Any good threads/FAQs on the duration (& other issues, etc.) of a RAM Disk?

 
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Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
Do you have hardware capable of running Linux (and/or a VM with Linux) and either a hardware Localtalk->Ethernet bridge or an old beige Mac with an ethernet port you can run the Localtalk bridge software on? You can get an "out of the box" software distribution right here that comes with a preconfigured GS/OS installation you can boot over the network, no floppy disks required *at all*. Dorking around trying to install GS/OS to a RAMdisk every time you turn the computer on sounds like possibly the worst of all possible plans ever.

Another relatively low-cost solution (compared to the street prices of a working SCSI setup or an exotic high-capacity RAM card) is the Floppy Emu; as of fairly recently the device has the ability to emulate a SmartPort hard disk. (Basically the Apple II equivalent of an HD-20.) It won't be as fast as a real hard disk but for casual use it's adequate.

 

Elfen

Well-known member
I too would recommend the FloppyEmu for this. Net booting requires that you have two machines up and running for one to boot off the other, and in my case, I need a machine to be able to stand alone and do what it has to do alone.

I do not know what your needs are and why you need net booting, my needs are different from yours and everyone else's.

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
If you have a localtalk->ethernet hardware bridge and run a server on your network anyway the network boot solution works pretty well. (Or, in my case I actually have the server installed on an ancient laptop, which means if I want to set up the IIgs in some arbitrary location it's still not much harder than plugging together an external hard disk.) It does get a little sketchy for all-the-time use if you need to have a Mac as the intermediate.

 

raoulduke

Well-known member
I had basically the same thoughts, particularly because I want to minimize disk switching.  I also wonder in hindsight if I actually had to add a user on my mac.  When I have time I'll work on this a bit more and post again.

Re: floppy emu, I'm debating it because I also gather it's not format-specific (I haven't read much but I mean I assume you can partition it?) such that I could use it pretty much for all my Apple machines, anyway (my IIe has a 5.25 interface)?

 
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Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
Note that to do the NetBoot thing with the Apple software requires *specific* versions of the "real" Appleshare server software (not the personal sharing support), as detailed in that long complex document you referenced earlier. I'm sure the software *is* available on (insert warez site here), but you will have to follow the instructions to the letter. The nice thing about the a2server linux solution is it's all pre-installed and pretty much "just works" as long as you have a bridge. (I was able to use it to bootstrap my bare metal IIgs with *no floppies whatsover* instead of using ADTPro; once booted up I could use the "Asimov" program to write disk images of software stored on the server to floppy.)
 

Re: floppy emu, I'm debating it because I also gather it's not format-specific (I haven't read much but I mean I assume you can partition it?) such that I could use it pretty much for all my Apple machines, anyway (my IIe has a 5.25 interface)?
The Floppy Emu has some specific limitations relating to emulating 5.25 drives that are... kinda annoying. (As cool as it is I just have to say it.) Which style of controller/drives does your IIe have, the old "Disk ][" setup where each drive has a separate 20 pin ribbon cable to the controller, or the 19 pin daisy chain connector? The FloppyEmu only *really* fully supports the latter, and you need to have the "enhanced" cable option if you want to be able to write to disks.

For a IIgs it can either emulate a 3.5 inch floppy, or, in "Smartport" mode, it can emulate *four* separate hard drives, each of which can be up to 2GB in size. It can also do the "Smartport" thing on later IIc's (the original "ROM 255" version doesn't support it) and IIe's equipped with the "Liron" controller. (You can tell this apart from the "regular" 19 pin controller by the presence of an IWM chip on it.)

 
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raoulduke

Well-known member
(When I first saw Warez as a kid (b. 1985), it was not at all obvious to me (for years...) that it's wares, so I internalized that pronunciation as Juarez.)

My IIe has both; I just recently installed the 19-pin connector, which is why I mentioned it (before that it really would have just been usable on my IIgs - but even that is beneficial because then one or the other can be a workhorse machine at least to make IIgs disks - the IIgs would be better for that).  Alright... so it's basically down to price.  It's going to be a while before I can justify it.  The IIgs spread was more than I normally like to spend, and my attempt to offset it on eBay has not been going fruitfully lol.  Maybe for spring break.  Thanks for the advice.

 
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NJRoadfan

Well-known member
You can't fit Appleshare and Finder onto a 800k disk all at once, that's why you are getting the launcher. You can sorta cheat and copy Finder to your Appleshare server and run it from there if you want. Its slow, but it works. You can even set it to auto-run Finder from the Appleshare server with the SetStart control panel, you just have to make sure the share is accessible and set to mount on boot. (you will be prompted for username and password if needed)

 

raoulduke

Well-known member
Hey Gorgonops, btw, I finally got the Ramdisk idea running yesterday... It's totally impractical as you noted.  It was pretty cool, though.  Finder and networking actually don't need that much - probably just over 800k ironically.  I had several hundred k left over on a 1,248kB ramdisk.

I do have some weirder ideas, that I'm abusing the germaneness of this thread to describe.  I got an Atari 1040ST as I've noted elsewhere and after getting the VGA and mouse adapters up and running I realized there's a problem with the floppy (I hope...) drive.  So I wound up modding a semi-standard 1.44mb Compaq drive because the ST uses 34-pin Shugart interfaces, thankfully.  This means that (I'm pretty sure - I've seen TOS 2.6 or something ROM noted as a limitation, though) the machine can at least in theory read HD disks.  I don't know precisely what that means.  However, there's a floppy to Smartmedia adapter that (as I understand it) allowed the use of HD floppy drives as scalable smartmedia readers - and could be used on any HD drive at least in theory.  I'm seriously inclined to try that on the ST if I can actually use HD disks.  I'm also then inclined to try it on some Macs, and then - to cycle back - I think I've read about HD floppies on IIgs.  I'm assuming it was a single card that's obscenely rare and prohibitively expensive?

 
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