Dennis Nedry
Well-known member
I'm not exactly sure if it's worth it. The cap looks to be in perfect condition. I have a few similar caps as well but I'm not sure how good they are or how old they are.
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Updated 2023-07-12: Hello, Guest! Welcome back, and be sure to check out this follow-up post about our outage a week or so ago.
IIfx Won't boot
- Thread starter Tempest
- Start date
being that large its not going to be anything mission critical (big farads = low frequency filter, or a really half hearted fudge of a timer) I have just been cleaning and sorting through stuff preparing to let my wife know about the //c (shh) that I am going to rebuild this summer once we get some good retrObright weather
Tempest
Well-known member
Well I finally got the IIfx working. Turns out both of my SuperDrives are bad (not sure if they're fixable) but I had a spare working HD so I was able to get it to boot into System 6.0.8. I still can't get that SuperMac video card to reset itself for my new monitor, but I found I also have a RasterOps 8XL card which seemed to like my monitor just fine. Unfortunately I only have 8MB of memory as 16 of the memory sticks I have are 1MB sticks and the other 4 appear to be bad (the Mac won't boot with them in), but I assume they're also 1MB sticks.
Tempest
Tempest
Dennis Nedry
Well-known member
If the RAM is bad, the Mac should make a death chime instead of, or in addition to, the normal startup sound.
Bad RAM can be caused by:
- Dirty connectors (clean with an eraser)
- Mismatched RAM, maybe some SIMMs are different sizes than others
- One or more SIMMs is bad
Did you find your hard drive power connector?
Dennis Nedry
Well-known member
If these SIMMs are all identical, then at least 1 of the 4 is dirty or bad. Check to see if the numbers on the actual chips match from SIMM to SIMM. If they're different at all, that could be the problem.
8MB actually will still get you a long way with a Mac IIfx. Apps and Mac OS from back then are very conservative with RAM.
8MB actually will still get you a long way with a Mac IIfx. Apps and Mac OS from back then are very conservative with RAM.
just something to try ...scuffing the contacts lightly with some fine grit steel wool, works better than pencil eraser on mismatched "settled in" parts, but its dust is highly conductive
a small stiff brush submerged with the board in a cleaning solution is a sure fire way to be sure, but a fine point pinch of wool carefully applied and some compressed air can be effective with care
a small stiff brush submerged with the board in a cleaning solution is a sure fire way to be sure, but a fine point pinch of wool carefully applied and some compressed air can be effective with care
protocol7
Well-known member
Instead of starting a new thread I'll tack onto this one.
I'm trying to get my "new" IIfx working here. Initially it didn't power on. I added in two batteries and that got it to boot, but the hard drive didn't spin up. I tried to boot from a floppy and it started to load, a SuperMac logo appeared and the floppy was ejected.
Now it chimes, the sound seems to initialise but that's as far as it goes. The floppy isn't powering up any more and there's nothing onscreen.
I pulled one of the SuperMac cards to try to ID it. I also connected up the hard disk from my LC III (just the power cable, not the SCSI) to check that the PSU was working OK. The LC III disk spun up fine so the fault seems to be with the IIfx hard disk. I also tried to hook up the LC III's floppy to check if it would boot any further (perhaps the IIfx's one is faulty). It didn't power up. So somewhere along the way, one of these things I tried seems to have messed things up. Has anyone any ideas?
Updates:
I pulled the second SuperMac card and the drives and booted to a grey screen. Put the drives back and I still boot to a grey screen. If I pull the power cable from the hard drive it boots to the grey screen with the SuperMac logo in the bottom right corner. The floppy isn't powering up at all.
Both cards installed and no drives gets me to a grey screen. Attaching the LC III floppy yields the same, but the drive doesn't try to read or boot the inserted floppy. Reconnecting the hard drive's scsi cable (but not power) and the floppy gets me the grey screen with the SuperMac logo, but no movement out of the floppy drive. Reconnecting the hard drive's power cable as well, gets me the grey screen without the SuperMac logo.
If I lift up the floppy disk inside the drive, I can hear heads/motor at work. So it is getting power at least. Could I have damaged the floppy connector on the IIfx logic board in some way by hooking up the floppy from the LC III?
I tried the IIfx floppy on the LC III and it "works" but floppies are unreadable and when it tried to format it failed verification. So I guess it's gonna need a look at.
I'm trying to get my "new" IIfx working here. Initially it didn't power on. I added in two batteries and that got it to boot, but the hard drive didn't spin up. I tried to boot from a floppy and it started to load, a SuperMac logo appeared and the floppy was ejected.
Now it chimes, the sound seems to initialise but that's as far as it goes. The floppy isn't powering up any more and there's nothing onscreen.
I pulled one of the SuperMac cards to try to ID it. I also connected up the hard disk from my LC III (just the power cable, not the SCSI) to check that the PSU was working OK. The LC III disk spun up fine so the fault seems to be with the IIfx hard disk. I also tried to hook up the LC III's floppy to check if it would boot any further (perhaps the IIfx's one is faulty). It didn't power up. So somewhere along the way, one of these things I tried seems to have messed things up. Has anyone any ideas?
Updates:
I pulled the second SuperMac card and the drives and booted to a grey screen. Put the drives back and I still boot to a grey screen. If I pull the power cable from the hard drive it boots to the grey screen with the SuperMac logo in the bottom right corner. The floppy isn't powering up at all.
Both cards installed and no drives gets me to a grey screen. Attaching the LC III floppy yields the same, but the drive doesn't try to read or boot the inserted floppy. Reconnecting the hard drive's scsi cable (but not power) and the floppy gets me the grey screen with the SuperMac logo, but no movement out of the floppy drive. Reconnecting the hard drive's power cable as well, gets me the grey screen without the SuperMac logo.
If I lift up the floppy disk inside the drive, I can hear heads/motor at work. So it is getting power at least. Could I have damaged the floppy connector on the IIfx logic board in some way by hooking up the floppy from the LC III?
I tried the IIfx floppy on the LC III and it "works" but floppies are unreadable and when it tried to format it failed verification. So I guess it's gonna need a look at.
protocol7
Well-known member
Still no progress. I can't get it to boot beyond these grey screens. I've tried the internal disk from my 7500 and an external SCSI (as apparently you don't need the black terminator for newer drives).
The first time I powered it on after putting in the batteries it got to the "missing system" blinking icon. Never saw it again.
The first time I powered it on after putting in the batteries it got to the "missing system" blinking icon. Never saw it again.
Do you have a voltmeter? I would start by measuring the output of the power supply and determine if the 5V is at 5V and the 12V is at 12V, etc.
I'm not sure the LCIII floppy will work in the IIfx. It shouldn't hurt anything to try, but using a manual inject floppy drive in a machine that expects an auto-inject drive is problematical. I think it requires a different cable, at the least.
protocol7
Well-known member
Unfortunately no. I'm not really equipped for this level of troubleshooting. I'm still at the swap-with-a-known-good-part stage.
I've stripped it down a bit now. Disconnected everything from the logic board except for the PSU connector as that's very tight. At a minimum, what should I need connected to at least get it to check for a system disk to boot from? ROM, one gfx card and a stick of RAM? What about the internal SCSI bus? The service manual says I need a special terminator if there is no drive attached. I've tried attaching two drives (Apple branded from my 7500 and a non-Apple Quantum from my LC III) and neither got me any further than the dead 160SC it came with.
I only got the flashing "missing system" icon the first time it booted after I added the batteries. I'm thinking I might have damaged something with my hardware swapping, but I can't be sure. I'd just like to see it get that far again for peace of mind. The only way I can do a PRAM reset is to remove the batteries as the keyboard doesn't do anything when sitting on the grey screen.
I used the IIfx floppy cable both when connecting the LC III floppy to the IIfx and the IIfx floppy to the LC III. The LC III's one was just too short.
I've stripped it down a bit now. Disconnected everything from the logic board except for the PSU connector as that's very tight. At a minimum, what should I need connected to at least get it to check for a system disk to boot from? ROM, one gfx card and a stick of RAM? What about the internal SCSI bus? The service manual says I need a special terminator if there is no drive attached. I've tried attaching two drives (Apple branded from my 7500 and a non-Apple Quantum from my LC III) and neither got me any further than the dead 160SC it came with.
I only got the flashing "missing system" icon the first time it booted after I added the batteries. I'm thinking I might have damaged something with my hardware swapping, but I can't be sure. I'd just like to see it get that far again for peace of mind. The only way I can do a PRAM reset is to remove the batteries as the keyboard doesn't do anything when sitting on the grey screen.
I used the IIfx floppy cable both when connecting the LC III floppy to the IIfx and the IIfx floppy to the LC III. The LC III's one was just too short.
protocol7
Well-known member
A friend called over earlier with a multimeter and the PSU checks out. +12v, -12v and +5v in all the right places. The batteries checked out too.
I just tried the hard disk from my Classic II but it still won't go past the grey screen (no rounded edges btw). So that's power ok and known-good HD not booting it. I've tried the hard disk cable from the Classic II as well, to ensure the problem isn't with the IIfx's cable. I've also tried moving the gfx card to another slot.
Board wash maybe?
I just tried the hard disk from my Classic II but it still won't go past the grey screen (no rounded edges btw). So that's power ok and known-good HD not booting it. I've tried the hard disk cable from the Classic II as well, to ensure the problem isn't with the IIfx's cable. I've also tried moving the gfx card to another slot.
Board wash maybe?
Maybe, but it seems unlikely. Every IIfx I've seen has tantalum caps installed. I'm not sure what could leak onto the board that would need washing off, assuming the batteries have never leaked onto it.
Freezing at a gray screen can be an indication of a SCSI bus problem. Usually a very bad termination problem. So your problem may be as simple as the missing terminator. Both ends of the SCSI bus should be terminated, so even with a good terminated hard drive on the bus, you may still have problems because the IIfx end isn't terminated without the internal terminator. I think. I can't remember if the motherboard provides automatic termination if no devices are connected.
Hmmmm.
1) Have you tried it with no SCSI cable attached at all? This should get you to a flashing question mark.
2) If 1) fails, do you have a second known good SCSI drive and an internal SCSI cable with three or more connectors?
A) Do not connect any external SCSI cables.
B) Plug one of the middle connectors of the internal SCSI cable into the logic board.
C) Make sure that termination is enabled on both of your known good drives. Double check the jumpers.
D) Make sure that "Termination Power" (different from termination) is disabled on both drives.
E) Plug the known good SCSI drives into the connectors at the ends of the internal SCSI cable. One on each end.
F) Try it.
G) If that doesn't work try enabling "Termination Power" on one (only one) of the two drives.
3) If that doesn't work, buy or build the special terminator for the IIfx and try that....
protocol7
Well-known member
Thanks for the ideas.
I'm pretty sure I tried with no scsi cable attached and got the grey screen. I'll try it again soon and see what happens (I have it sitting with batteries out right now to reset the PRAM). I'll check the SCSI cable in my 7500 and see if that has 3 connectors. Then I could use that, the 7500's hard disk and maybe a scsi cd/dvd drive (otherwise I'll have to open up my Classic II again to get it's hard disk).
I've suspected scsi voodoo as I think I got a similar grey screen when I attached an external CD to my Classic II. It worked fine on the LC III but not on the Classic II until I attached a terminator to the CD enclosure. What's bugging me about the scsi voodoo situation is that the first time I powered it up I got to the flashing disk icon. So the current set-up of drives and cables etc and termination (or lack thereof) worked briefly yesterday. But not any more.
Update:
Booting with no scsi cable attached does indeed give just the grey screen.
7500's SCSI cable has 4 connectors so I'll work on taking that out now.)
7500's hard disk doesn't have any jumpers. Will it be OK to use two optical drives? I'm assuming the purpose is to have a SCSI device on either end. They don't have to be hard disks?
I went ahead and tried with the CDROM and hard disk from the 7500. The hard disk had no jumpers but the same drive/cable setup works without issue on the 7500, so I guess that means both are setup ok for termination. Still a grey screen.
Tried again with 7500 and LC III hard disks. Same outcome. Neither drive has any jumpers.
I'm pretty sure I tried with no scsi cable attached and got the grey screen. I'll try it again soon and see what happens (I have it sitting with batteries out right now to reset the PRAM). I'll check the SCSI cable in my 7500 and see if that has 3 connectors. Then I could use that, the 7500's hard disk and maybe a scsi cd/dvd drive (otherwise I'll have to open up my Classic II again to get it's hard disk).
I've suspected scsi voodoo as I think I got a similar grey screen when I attached an external CD to my Classic II. It worked fine on the LC III but not on the Classic II until I attached a terminator to the CD enclosure. What's bugging me about the scsi voodoo situation is that the first time I powered it up I got to the flashing disk icon. So the current set-up of drives and cables etc and termination (or lack thereof) worked briefly yesterday. But not any more.
Update:
Booting with no scsi cable attached does indeed give just the grey screen.
7500's SCSI cable has 4 connectors so I'll work on taking that out now.)
7500's hard disk doesn't have any jumpers. Will it be OK to use two optical drives? I'm assuming the purpose is to have a SCSI device on either end. They don't have to be hard disks?
I went ahead and tried with the CDROM and hard disk from the 7500. The hard disk had no jumpers but the same drive/cable setup works without issue on the 7500, so I guess that means both are setup ok for termination. Still a grey screen.
Tried again with 7500 and LC III hard disks. Same outcome. Neither drive has any jumpers.
Okay, they don't have any jumpers, but does that mean that they don't have any jumper pins? I've never seen a SCSI drive without jumper pins (or resistor packs) to set the termination. I think you may need to reexamine those drives.
On hard drives the pins are often on the flat bottom of the drive and may be really really tiny. They are only rarely actually on the end of the drive with the power and interface cable connectors.
Whether you can assume that the 7500 drive was set to terminate depends on whether the drive was at the end of the cable. Sometimes the optical drive is at the end of the cable and provides termination and the hard drive is on an intermediate connector. It also depends on whether the 7500 is still in its stock configuration and hasn't possibly been misconfigured by someone in the past. Remember, the reason why SCSI has voodoo, isn't because it doesn't work when it should, it's because sometimes it works when it shouldn't. So even if you're 7500 was working properly, you can't assume that it was configured properly, unless you're the original owner.
On hard drives the pins are often on the flat bottom of the drive and may be really really tiny. They are only rarely actually on the end of the drive with the power and interface cable connectors.
Whether you can assume that the 7500 drive was set to terminate depends on whether the drive was at the end of the cable. Sometimes the optical drive is at the end of the cable and provides termination and the hard drive is on an intermediate connector. It also depends on whether the 7500 is still in its stock configuration and hasn't possibly been misconfigured by someone in the past. Remember, the reason why SCSI has voodoo, isn't because it doesn't work when it should, it's because sometimes it works when it shouldn't. So even if you're 7500 was working properly, you can't assume that it was configured properly, unless you're the original owner.
protocol7
Well-known member
On the 7500 the hard disk was on the end of the cable with the cdrom as intermediate.
You're right. I assumed the term jumper would be at the back. I took off the drive sled and there's 7 sets of pins with two jumpers on the pcb. No marking as to which pin is which though.
Google time...
According to the jumper list, enable terminator and disable unit attention are jumpered. So it's terminated alright. I'm only assuming the cdrom is terminating though. As that doesn't have any term jumper. Only one for term power. The jumper beside it isn't marked (or in use).
Looking at the LC III's disk again, termination is enabled there too. I don't see an option on either hard drive for term power though.
You're right. I assumed the term jumper would be at the back. I took off the drive sled and there's 7 sets of pins with two jumpers on the pcb. No marking as to which pin is which though.
Google time...
According to the jumper list, enable terminator and disable unit attention are jumpered. So it's terminated alright. I'm only assuming the cdrom is terminating though. As that doesn't have any term jumper. Only one for term power. The jumper beside it isn't marked (or in use).
Looking at the LC III's disk again, termination is enabled there too. I don't see an option on either hard drive for term power though.
protocol7
Well-known member
Last test for tonight. I put my 7500 hard disk in the LC III, wiped it and installed a fresh System 7.5 for all Macs (I tried 7.1 but the resulting install wouldn't boot the LC III for some reason). Took out the gfx card from the IIfx and put in the fresh System 7.5 drive. This way, if the drive booted OK, it would single out the gfx card as being the culprit.
Well, it didn't. No booting at all. Most reports I'm seeing online say you can dispense with the special IIfx terminators if the drives have active termination. So with that in mind I'm assuming that this drive should have booted OK. So am I right in saying this leaves me with flaky SCSI? Maybe the fact that it booted the first time was the voodoo kicking in. If that is the case then I'm probably hosed.
Well, it didn't. No booting at all. Most reports I'm seeing online say you can dispense with the special IIfx terminators if the drives have active termination. So with that in mind I'm assuming that this drive should have booted OK. So am I right in saying this leaves me with flaky SCSI? Maybe the fact that it booted the first time was the voodoo kicking in. If that is the case then I'm probably hosed.
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