IIci - can't boot from *any* CD-ROM?

[CJ_Miller]

I am having a crazy time trying to set up a IIci. First I tried the external SCSI - with three different drives, in combination with three different cables, on every possible combination of jumper settings. I have tried two different CDRs, one of 7.5.3 and one of 7.6.1. The 7.6.1 image I can confirm is bootable because I did boot my 8600 from it, using one of these same CD-ROMs (all Apple BTW, a 300 and two 600i).

So... the IIci does boot from it's teeny 200MB internal  hard drive. It says it's device 0. So I removed the hard drive and replace it with a known good CD-ROM drive using a known good image, set to device 0 and I still can't get it to boot. I tried every combination of ID, parity, and termination. Booting with the "c" key, of course.

One possible problem is the System 7 gap in my experience. I have set up quite a few 6, 8, and 9 systems, but never 7 before. So it's entirely possible that there is some obvious SCSI or OS 7 quirk which I am simply not aware of. I kind of hope so, because otherwise... I have no idea. I thought this install would be easy, but so far I've wasted lots of time, and it seems impossible. Any suggestions? I'd be grateful!

 

[unity]

Try command-option-shift-delete

The IIci is too old to really know what "c" is for at boot.

 

[CJ_Miller]

Yes, thanks, Unity - I had tried this combo also. Again, with every possible combination of jumpers. To the same effect.

 

[unity]

Ok. Lets backup one sec. You said these same cds boot in the 8600. But can you maybe pull the CD-ROM drive from the 8600 for use in the IIci? Its not clear, but it sounds like you did not - simply that you have some of the same model drives.

I only suggest this because old model cd-roms are very touchy when it comes to CD-R media. And while the models may be the same, the brand or even the brand of the eye may not be the same. So if it works in the 8600, that exact drive may be key. If you were not using CD-R, there may not even have been an issue. Also I would leave the jumpers in place if you pull it.

 

[CJ_Miller]

Yes, I did use the same drive and jumpers. I didn't want to! But it seemed properly methodical since I knew for a fact that the drive and CD worked together and were bootable on the 8600. Are bootable CDs any different in 7? I was guessing the boot block could be fussier somehow. I don't know.

I moved a few months back and misplaced a box of diskettes I could use somewhere. And I have zero money to buy more.

Now that I think of it, I did install 7 once before, using one of these same CD-ROM drives on an LC475. The LC ended up having other problems, but the install wasn't difficult like this. I thought maybe the SCSI was fried on the IIci (like on my SE/30) but it does boot the original hard drive I bought it with, That drive has no visible jumpers, so I don't really know how the system sees it when it boots.

 

[unity]

Well you could drop the IIci hard drive into the 8600 and install it that way. Boot the 8600 normally and just run the installer from the CD in the Finder. Its been a while since I installed systems this old, but it should work just fine. You dont have to boot from the CD to install it.

 

[CJ_Miller]

I know... BUT - I really want to install 7.5.3 on it, not 7.6.1. And the 8600 won't boot 7.5.3. I just pulled out the 7.6.1 CD as an extra thing to test with once I ran into problems. AIIIEEE!!! I've got to meditate upon this while I try doing something else for a few hours, too many tech dysfunctions are putting me on edge.

 

[unity]

Hmmm.. I dunno then. I dont recall what happens will launching an installer from the Frinder on a system that is not meant to be on the machine. I am guessing you tried and it wont let you.

 

[onlyonemac]

The other problem is that running the installer on a different computer could cause the wrong drivers to be installed, so ultimately it might not work in the correct computer.

Have you checked that the CD-ROM contains CD-ROM drivers compatible with the IIci? Otherwise you will need to boot the IIci from a floppy disk containing compatible drivers and run the installer from there.

 

[unity]

^ Non of that make sense.

Its system 7 - what drivers? I suppose one could consider a system enabler a driver, but the IIci would not need one with 7.

Again, its 7 on the boot end. The CD if read at all would at very least try to boot. If not compatible, it would say so when booting. The problem is the IIci is not trying to boot at all from the CD.

The CD is a bootable since it works on the 8600.

Anyway, how were the CDs burned? I had a thought about HFS.

 

[trag]

Boot from the tiny internal hard drive with the SCSI CDROM connected.

If you can't get this to work, even though you could boot from the hard drive by itself, earlier, then there is a problem wtih the CDROM or the cableing or how it is configured.

If you can boot from the hard drive with the CDROM attached, load the Mac OS CDROM while booted from the hard drive. You may need a CDROM driver, although if your MacOS install disk is bootable, it should have one loaded on it.  The disk may need to be inserted at boot time for it to load, though.  My memory is hazy.  

Anyway, if you need a driver/extension, the one that shipped in Apple System 7.6 had generic support for all drives (removed in 7.6.1) or use something like CDROM Toolkit from FWB or some such, if you have it available. Oh, I think I have Speedy CD here: https://www.prismnet.com/~trag/SPEEDYCD.SEA.hqx   .

Okay, now, if you can boot from the hard drive, and get the CDROM to mount, then go to the Start-up Disk control panel, choose the 7.5.3 CDROM as the startup disk (if it's not available, but it is mounted, it might not be a bootable disk) and restart the computer, leaving everything turned on.   The machine should now boot from the CDROM without any keyboard commands necessary.

 

[CJ_Miller]

I did what you suggested, trag, and booted with the original HD and the 600i on the external connector. And it worked! In fact, it booted from the CD automatically.

So... it turns out that the problem somehow is my target drive. When it is connected, the IIci suddenly can't see the CD anymore. I don't know if the drive is no longer viable, or if I haven't set it up right yet. It's got *14 pairs of jumpers* for SCSI configuration, so this could take all night to figure out. I think I had it installed in an 8100 last, and it worked fine

If anybody can tell me what the boot drive needs to be, with regards to ID, parity, termination, etc could save me a lot of time!

But thanks for the help, folks! At least I know now that the problem is not the CD-ROM itself, which provides some direction to my troubleshooting.

 

[sstaylor]

As I recall, the internal HD is scsi id 0.  An internal CD was id 3.  If i recall correctly.

 

[CJ_Miller]

Mystery appears to be solved!

It appears that the problem all along has been my target drive - a 4 GB  Seagate 15150N. It worked fine last time I used it, but now it seems to have borken. I tried connecting my other little SCSI drives to the external bus of my 8600 and they are detected just fine. The 15150N I can get recognized by FWB as a device, but with no capacity, and it throws up vague errors when it tries to format the drive. Unfortunately, this was the perfect size drive, and the only GB+ SCSI drive I had free for this. So I now get to rethink my plans.

Thanks for the help all! I try to be methodical but it can be easy to lose perspective when the troubleshooting goes badly.

 

[CJ_Miller]

Oh! And when I left the CD in by accident, the 8600 did boot from 7.5.3, although I don't know if the install scripts would run. Just mentioning because I read that 7.5.5 is the earliest these can run. Although, in practice, of course - one would almost certainly want the improved PPC support of later versions.

 

[bear]

Just for the record, it's perfectly sensible to hook a drive for an old mac up to a new mac running OS 8 or 9 or whatever, boot the new mac normally, then chuck the 7.5 CD or 7.1 floppies or whatever in it and use the installer to install the old OS to the drive for the old mac. You don't have to boot the OS you want to install, and you can install to other than the boot drive.

 

[onlyonemac]

Just for the record, it's perfectly sensible to hook a drive for an old mac up to a new mac running OS 8 or 9 or whatever, boot the new mac normally, then chuck the 7.5 CD or 7.1 floppies or whatever in it and use the installer to install the old OS to the drive for the old mac. You don't have to boot the OS you want to install, and you can install to other than the boot drive.

Just be aware though that the installer will usually try to automatically choose the appropriate software for your particular Mac, so you will probably need to change the default selections if you're installing for a different Mac than the one running the installer.

 

[trag]

Are you sure you have the 15150N set to a SCSI ID which does not conflict?   I had one (two?) of those way back when.  As I recall they are half height (as thick as an optical drive) and not very fast, but decent enough for a IIci's built-in SCSI bus.

As someone else mentioned, the internal drive is probably set to 0 and the CDROM to 3.   However, I recommend getting a copy of SCSIProbe and without the 15150N connected, use it to identify the SCSI IDs already in use.   Then you can connect the 15150N and work on its configuration.

 

[CJ_Miller]

Yes, I methodically tried tried quite a few IDs. In the IIci, it was the only device on bus 0, and the CD-ROM was the only device on bus 1. So there should have been no conflict anyway.

As I was saying, I tried to run some diagnostics on the drive in a working system, and it (the drive) seems to have some hardware malfunction. So I am retiring it.

This is kind of unexpected since over the past few years since I'd used the drive, I'd say that nothing has happened to it that I am aware of.

What I did was juggle some data  around in my 8600 and take its original 4 GB drive for the IIci, it worked right away.

Thanks again for the help!