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I love LocalTalk

H3NRY

Well-known member
Routers and bridges were available to connect LocalTalk to Ethernet and Token Ring ranging from the Shiva FastPath down to little ones like the Farallon or Dayna Mini-EtherPrint that I use to connect my LocalTalk segment to Ethernet. Routers set up separate zones for each port. Bridges like the EtherPrint have both groups in the same zone. Yes indeed, Shiva was the big noise in Apple networking. Smaller players like Nuvotech always had to test compatibility with Shiva's NetModem, NetSerial, and the big guns like the FastPath.

My big network problem right now is that Apple doesn't support AppleTalk any more.

 

BarnacleGrim

Well-known member
That's what I'm trying to solve with my server project. A common file and print server for both AppleTalk and TCP/IP.

 

shred

Well-known member
How did the zones work with EtherTalk and TokenTalk, was it possible to define zones on non-LocalTalk hardware?
The zones are created ("seeded") by a router. Zones are definitely not restricted to LocalTalk. A single ethernet LAN running AppleTalk could have many zones, with devices logically grouped into zones even though they may be sharing one physical LAN. In the case of LocalTalk, a single LocalTalk segment could only be mapped to one zone. It's been a long time since I played with it, but I'm pretty sure each LocalTalk segment on a routed AppleTalk network needed a unique network seed address (basically a number from 1-65535 for ethernet, although some numbers may have been reserved - it's been 15 years since I did this stuff for a living!). Multiple physical LocalTalk network segments could share the same zone name - as long as the underlying network addresses were unique.

This meant that the zones were purely logical groupings (e.g. by department) and did not reflect the physical network layout. One department might have Macs, servers and printers in a mixture of Ethernet, Token Ring and LocalTalk networks, but the users were completely oblivious to this and the Chooser could see them all in one big happy zone.

LocalTalk was notorious for becoming slow and nasty if there were too many devices on a single network segment. Schools frequently created single LocalTalk networks with up to 25 computers connected (usually not terminated properly / poor quality wiring / cheap copies of the Farallon PhoneNet adapters etc), then wondered why the network didn't work. For businesses, it was considered desirable to have no more than four computers on a single LocalTalk segment. If this rule was followed, LocalTalk networks could hum along very nicely indeed.

There were a few devices around for connecting lots of little LocalTalk networks to an ethernet backbone. Compatible Systems made a 1 x ethernet to 2 x LocalTalk router called an "EtherRoute TCP". I have one of these connecting my Compact Macs and Mac Portable to ethernet :) There was a similar device called a "Webster MultiGate" with had 4 x LocalTalk port + 1 x ethernet. The ethernet to LocalTalk routers were fantasic, because each LocalTalk segment effectively had its own dedicated channel to servers on ethernet and traffic on one LocalTalk network did not slow down any other network segments. [Edit] I should mention that another solution was to run the software router "Apple Internet Router" on a Mac II or similar and use both printer and modem ports to run separate LocalTalk LAN segments. I recall there were also some software products to do this in the background on AppleShare file servers. You could set up a Mac as a file server and connect 2 x LocalTalk network - one to the printer port and one to the modem port. Popular with schools for low cost. We generally avoided these solutions, because they tended to break (or the software would get fiddled with!) and would need fixing. A proper hardware router, configured properly would seldom return to haunt you at a later date.

A less elegant, but considerably cheaper and easier to configure solution was a device called a P-Shooter (not sure if the spelling of the name is correct). It was a dumb (i.e. not managed) device with many LocalTalk ports. The P-Shooter re-clocked and cleaned up the signals coming in from each LocalTalk port before broadcasting them to all the other ports - much like a 10Base-T ethernet hub. It did nothing for problems with traffic and saturated LocalTalk segments, but made a big difference to school networks without the expense or management overhead of a proper AppleTalk router.

 

BarnacleGrim

Well-known member
So for a reliable LocalTalk network one would need a router for every four devices? How did that compare to 10base2? It would be fun for historical purposes to have a 10base2 segment, as a great deal of my Macs have BNC connectors instead of RJ45. I would have to find a bridge, though. There is a cruft room in one of the university buildings, but I would have to get keycard access, and I imagine all the 90s stuff is long gone.

This thread really takes me back to when I was a kid and I was sketching and planning networks at home. A front desk with a Tiki Z80 computer where "clients" could sign in (connected with a Shiva NetSerial, I suppose), an office with a Mac in every room, and of course a LaserWriter and a Workgroup server. Of course I never put much thought to what this supposed business would actually do, and who would work there. My first grade teacher at the time thought I was messed up in the head and sent a worried letter home when I didn't want to roll around in the mud with the other children. Maybe she was right, and I still am! :lol:

Now I have most of the hardware and my own house, but the idea of running a 1990s office doesn't seem quite as appealing any more.

 

shred

Well-known member
So for a reliable LocalTalk network one would need a router for every four devices? How did that compare to 10base2?
The typical corporate setup that I came across consisted of a server (or servers - sometimes NetWare with Mac support) on a 10Mb ethernet backbone connected to a Webster MultiGate with 4 x LocalTalk network, each LocalTalk segment having four Macs connected. i.e. 16 LocalTalk Macs to one MultiGate. This could scale out with multiple MultiGate routers sharing the one 10Mb ethernet segment.

The LocalTalk segment speed was still 230kb, so roughly 1/40th of ethernet speed. The advantage was that each Mac user would consistently get full LocalTalk speed. File sizes were much smaller then, so it actually ran quite well by the standards of the day. The MutliGates supported Mac IP and it was common for Mac users to use NCSA Telnet to access Unix systems as well as doing file and print.

Four Macs per LocalTalk segment was just a rough rule of thumb. I've seen properly terminated LocalTalk networks run ok with light traffic and 12 devices, although that is stretching the limits in my experience. Distance wise, we once ran a LocalTalk segment from a dedicated router port to a couple of Macs in a remote building some 100m (300ft) away.

I just dug out a copy of the Farallon PhoneNet manual and it says that it is possible to have up to 26 devices daisy chained over 1800 ft. I never tried anything like 1800 feet, but I think 26 devices would be pushing it; purely because of the low bandwidth per Mac with that many machines sharing 230kb (actually 230kb, less the bandwidth taken by network broadcasts and other AppleTalk overheads). It looks like Farallon also made a device similar to the P-Shooter I mentioned in an earlier post. It was called a "StarController". Effectively it was a 12 port LocalTalk hub. I never encountered one of these in the field though.

Has anyone outside Australia come across the Webster MultiGate routers? I recall them being an Australian product, but I don't know if they were only sold locally, or if they were also popular in the US market.

 

beachycove

Well-known member
I have mounted a 500GB share (Appleshare IP 6.3) using localtalk cabling on much older machines (e.g., 68030 PowerBooks) running Systems 7.1 - 7.5. Under localtalk and the standard AppleShare software that comes stock in System 7, a machine will list and work with the files on the 500GB disk. I have installed software archived on the large drive to localtalk-only machines. It is slow, I admit, but it is also all perfectly robust and a damn sight easier than making a massive set of floppies from an archive. All you do is go for a walk or a cup of coffee and when you come back the deed is done.

You need to have some sort of localtalk-ethertalk bridge running to do this (I use the Apple Internet Router for these purposes). Other than that small hitch, it couldn't be simpler.

So I like localtalk too. The ability to mount such large shares over that limited networking system amazes me every time I see it.

 

protocol7

Well-known member
I finally got around to trying out LocalTalk Bridge. It's amazing!

Neither of my two compacts have ethernet and now that I have A/UX on the SE/30 I feel the need for networking. So I ran some tests with the Classic II (as it had plain ole Mac OS installed) and everything just worked. I'm running LocalTalk Bridge on my 7500 which is hooked up to my router over ethernet. I have a Linintosh VM running in VirtualBox on Windows and can access it from System 6 on the Classic II connected to the 7500 with a printer cable :)

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So far this is just local networking, but tomorrow I'll see about getting online.

 

H3NRY

Well-known member
Dang! Somebody actually used P-Shooters? I figured that was the most obscure gadget I ever worked on. P-Con never got beyond the 2 guys in a garage stage. Perhaps the "CEO" licensed the design to some Australian firm.

My personal record for LocalTalk was 10,000 ft of cat 2 twisted pair. We had one guy who had a single pair with a break in it under a freeway that ran through his campus. He used P-Shooters to recover the mangled data and tie the two sides of the campus together. Musta been pretty desperate. Another guy claimed to run LocalTalk from house to barn over a couple of strands of barbed wire fence. 8-o A dozen or two Macs doing occasional server access on a LocalTalk segment was pretty tolerable. For users doing publishing or multimedia work, 4 users was preferable.

 

techfury90

Well-known member
Too bad token ring didn't catch on too well... in the days before switched ethernet, it was a much better LAN technology. The main thing that gets me about token ring MSAUs (the equivalent of a switch/hub) is that they don't need a power supply... they're passive devices that only need power for the port bypass relays to open, which comes from the attached device anyway. Clever design right there.

What's really interesting is that LocalTalk is actually based upon an IBM networking protocol, SDLC. If you don't believe me, the Zilog 8530 SCC had hardware-level support for it, and if this diagram from a circa 1986 IBM reference manual for SDLC doesn't describe LocalTalk, I don't know what does:

2eleceg.jpg.ce68bea6bdf9d91eb67d3a4dcaa73268.jpg


Also, SDLC supported multi-point serial links (again, just like LocalTalk), with an 8 bit address field. Ever noticed that AppleTalk's address field is 8 bits? There's your reason why.

 

napabar

Well-known member
How many other computers from 1986 had built-in networking hardware and built-in OS support for file sharing?
Acorn Econet - 1981-1993

1984 actually. A stock, 64K ROM Mac 512K (September 1984) could be a client for file sharing with LocalTalk.

Acorn did have built-in file sharing in the early 80's, but not in GUI form. :)

 

macquarium

Member
LocalTalk's pretty cool... I used to hook in old ethernet-less Macs to the home network using my IIfx as a bridge. Slow as molasses though!

Then again, Econet was even slower! BBC Model B was a neat system - first computer I ever used (not counting the Tomy Tutor Play Computer!). They're what the Apple II would have been like if anyone other than Steve Jobs hadn't designed the case.

Cheers, Ben.

 
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