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GUI evolution: KBDs, Cmd-Keys, SuperRodents & TouchScreens

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Tangential discussion shifted from: You Know You're an Old-School Mac Guy When... p.7

. . . holding down the mouse button to put away removable media is intuitive?
Honest question, have you used Mac OS X or did you jump from OS 9.x to Windows and then over to Linux?

On Mac OS X, there's at least three ways to eject/dismount/put-away removable media, several of which don't require that you hold the mouse button down at all.

You could, for example...

  • Select the media you'd like to put away, then use the keyboard shortcut Command + E
  • Right-click (or Option-Click if you do not own a multi-button mouse) on the media and select Eject "$VOLUME_NAME"
  • Open a new finder window, scroll down to the media in the left side-bar, and click on the eject button
  • Select the media you'd like to put away, then open the File menu, and choose Eject "$VOLUME_NAME".
  • Use the Terminal.
I've never really used X since giving 10.0.1 a test drive after installing the retail box on a new HDD in the DA, I went right back and continued to use my apps under native 9.whatever on the other drives.

I haven't used Windows for anything serious since I had the 3 in. thick book on Win98 back when the rug rat was going into High School. I tried to make the WinXPh3 install on HP_Mini usable but clung to 9 and my APP base, but it was refreshing to use MSWorks* again. When XPh3 predictably died a gruesome death, ubuntu went on and has been there since, but still hadn't become a daily driver. Though I'd made some progress on using the GIMP and OpenOffice, switching to the VISION powered Pavilion/3G (HP_Maxi) NetBook from Verizon, with its Win7 install, stopped that dead in its tracks.

I'm still using that same production/productivity app suite from Y2K under Native 9.2.2 on the QS'02 because what worked fine then still works great right now. I should say it works better than ever now that the WWW has been corralled on a sneakernetted appliance running a foreign OS for defense in depth against outside attack.

A lot of keyboard shortcuts were changed when OS X came out.
Indeed. Some of them didn't make sense at the time, although I haven't used 9 in a long time. The only other one I can remember off the top of my head was that I believe Command+M used to create an alias. I don't think that "clean up desktop" has a keyboard shortcut any more.
Yep, Command-M.

Works for DOS running in SoftPC under 7.0.1* on the PB100, before the release of ClarisWorks, was the cat's meow. Works/DOS had shortcuts every menu command like Alt/F/A for "Save as" when such went missing by design in most Mac apps for years to come. It needed to because it was a Windowed Shell kinda deal for folks who didn't necessarily have a mouse hooked up to their PC or PC Laptop. I'd been using Works/DOS at home on the Tandy1000SX before bringing it to work for my partner's wife to do the billing on for the business. I'd been using Zedcor's DeskPaint, DeskWorks->Desk under 6.0.X on the SE/Radius16, so it was nice to have the same program on my shiny new PB100 as on the 1000SX clunker for bookkeeping. Bookkeeping life got far better yet in 1993, when I had the same rev of ClarisWorks on Win3 PCs in the shop and at home along with the native Mac equivalent on the PB100 and the IIx/Rocket at the shop.

The menu command/command key GUI landscape changed forever with the TrackBall centric UI of the PowerBook 1XX series. It appears to be going through the same kind of thing with a halting switchover to a TouchScreen centric UI model of late.

From the outside, Win8 appears to be Microsoft's attempt to avoid the embarrassment the early 90's side mounted serial interface trackball for WinTel Laptops era.

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Dunno, but Peripherals seems to be the place to discuss the past and present development of the GUI, because peripherals development and the falling price point of universal hardware adoption has been the driving force, in both directions, since the launch of the GUI as I see it.

By what route have the rest of you arrived at today's iterations of the GUI, the Command Line and the Command-Key battleground in betwixt?

Which peripherals have you used on which platforms and what are your thoughts on paths taken and the direction of the future of peripherals and the GUI?

Did system hardware, peripheral hardware, Applications or OS platform shifts drive your choices a/o the route you've taken?

Should I bother getting a use patent for the [:eek:)] ]'> -nose pointing device for google glass? ;)

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
It's hard to talk about Mac OS X and Windows 8 when you haven't used them.

Peripherals is a very interesting place for this discussion. Arguably, because we're mainly talking about Windows/OSX on modern computers, this is better suited to the lounge. The Peripherals forum is about peripherals for 68k (and I suppose PPC) Mac hardware.

In terms of Windows 8 and touch screens, it's an attempt on Microsoft's part to implement another interface mechanism. We've talked about this a lot in the lounge. I often find myself reaching toward the screens on my laptop to quickly zoom or scroll/pan around the screen. in Windows 8 with touch hardware, this works very well. I can very quickly scroll through dozens, hundreds of pages of Word document or PDF, and I can pan back and forth and left and right on big web pages on small screens.

I would argue it's not the same as the side-attached trackball situation of the '90s. In the early '90s it was pretty clear that having a mouse was quickly going to become necessary to use computers. I'd argue that this aspect is true. However, I'd argue (and it has been well-proven) that touch hardware is NOT necessary for Windows 8.

And other other quick question: Was "clean up desktop" really a command in DOS? I dont' remember DOS itself having a lot of keyboard commands. Each application had commands available. Although I don't remember it being that every single app had every single menu item or command available as a keyboard command. In a lot of apps I used, the "keyboard command" was doing the equivalent of what you can still do in Windows. hit alt, THEN hit the letter associated with the menu you want to open, THEN hit the letter associated with the command or submenu you want to use. (Repeat as necessary to get to a final menu option.)

As another aside - Windows XP meeting a gruesome end is related more to its user than to the system itself. I feel like we've discussed this at length before too.

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Nope, it's the right place, you are talking about OS-X and esp. Win8 ad nauseam in the lounge, this is different.

Here I'm asking people who've actually experienced most of the changes in peripherals over the history of the GUI three different questions about what they've used, when and how they've used them and under what circumstances and OS platforms. Maybe some lurkers with experience and a tale to tell will sign up and join the discussion, that'd be refreshing.

One question is for those folks to project their past experiences into the future of peripherals and the GUI . . . oh . . . and I did made a joke about google glass, my bad.

I made an offhand comment about Microsoft trying not to get left out in the cold in this latest equivalent of the GUI, networking, and WWW boats that sailed without them.

As regards using something without commenting, anyone who lived through Win286, the Win3.x incarnations up through W4WG and the time the world 95'd itself to its knees knows to wait for the bugfix 8.1 version where they even put the TaskBar back where some idiotic UI design committee had borken it off before taking a test drive.

BTW, if you can set your disdain for NetBooks aside for just a second, you can probably figure out that there was a reason they were switched wholesale to Win7 ASAP, despite the price point hit. Had you actually used one with WinXPh3 and its artificial 1 MB RAM ceiling on a NetBook you might even have to agree that it was as inadequate as the folks on the NetBook fora were saying at the time mine was down and booting to a live session from an ubuntu Desktop CD for ten days while I researched options. That and the horrible experience I had with HP's Windows support led me to ubuntu's NetBook remix, a doubling of my addressable memory and all my problems being fixed, thank you very much.

I think we can all agree that a factory fresh install of an OS with exactly one app installation (FireFox) shouldn't really crash and burn after just two months use by anyone. So, no, we never really covered that one either.

Can we talk about peripherals and the GUI now?

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Nope, it's the right place, you are talking about OS-X and esp. Win8 ad nauseam in the lounge, this is different.
It sounds like you want people to talk about when they switched from teletypes to terminals with displays, and then from the console/terminal to a graphical interface. Arguably, from a technical perspective (given that this is a Mac forum) this whole board isn't the right place for that, but if there were a home for it, the Lounge would absolutely be it. I can move the thread for you if you'd like, but if you'd prefer, it can stick around here.

My own disdain for the traditional subforum classification of discussion topics probably belongs somewhere else yet, but that's a discussion I'm not prepared to have at the moment.

Here I'm asking people who've actually experienced most of the changes in peripherals over the history of the GUI three different questions about what they've used, when and how they've used them and under what circumstances and OS platforms. Maybe some lurkers with experience and a tale to tell will sign up and join the discussion, that'd be refreshing.


That aside-- what changes in peripherals are you talking about? Are you seriously asking for people's thoughts on the switch from teletypes to terminals?

If it makes you feel any better, my first two or three computers were predominantly DOS based machines. I believe the third was the first I owned that primarily booted into Windows. I also availed myself of several Apple II systems in elementary school, before seeing most of those swapped out for Macs, and ultimately NT boxes. I don't suppose that edutainment games count as "applications" or "use cases" though.

And, let's be honest, I wasn't particularly doing a lot of file management therein (on Apple IIs, in grade school) anyway, so it didn't matter if I booted to a desktop and launched the "app" with a mouse, booted to a launch screen and launched the "app" with my index finger, or put a floppy disk into a drive and booted directly to the "app."

Actually, what would be really interesting is if any K12 teachers my age or slightly older showed up and compared education software on touch interfaces like iOS/android/Windows-Modern-Interface to education software on Apple II, Mac and DOS/Windows. The iPad in particular has a whole heck of a lot of features geared toward education and using the devices with small children, such as the feature that lets you lock the iPad into a particular app and disable certain regions of the screen, making it perfect for configuring the whole "lab" of iPads (which can travel to the students, saving valuable time that was previously spent changing contexts) to run a single app that the class will be focusing on that day, such as Oregon Trail or Number Munchers or Math Blaster, or whatever equivalent software there is at this point.

One question is for those folks to project their past experiences into the future of peripherals and the GUI . . . oh . . . and I did made a joke about google glass, my bad.
It was a bad enough joke that I had chosen to ignore it. It'll be interesting to see where Google Glass goes, and in no way am I going to imply that I think an auxiliary product meant to provide ambient HUD information is the next big revolution in human-computer interaction (although it may be, we've now got small technology that's powerful enough to make the idea interesting), or that I think it's intended to provide a new primary interface. Google Glass, a lot like joysticks, spaceballs, and pads of dials, is going to be a very interesting secondary interface for specific purposes. You don't navigate your desktop with a joystick or a spaceball, and I don't think Google Glass will make any attempt whatsoever at being that type of environment for people.

As regards using something without commenting, anyone who lived through Win286, the Win3.x incarnations up through W4WG and the time the world 95'd itself to its knees knows to wait for the bugfix 8.1 version where they even put the TaskBar back where some idiotic UI design committee had borken it off before taking a test drive.
This statement makes no sense, but I presume you'll mean that early adopters get what they sign up for -- a beta quality experience.

However, if you'd ever looked at Windows 8, you'd notice that the task bar hasn't moved. ever. Not in the final version nor in any of the previews was the taskbar removed. In one or two of the previews, Microsoft was still toying around with some Windows-menu ideas, although I believe this was before they'd gotten the charms and other interface elements down pat. It was, after all, a beta release. (It wasn't even a release candidate at that point, it was in the first developer preview, which was like 8 or 9 months before the final release.)

Also, W4WG is not the truncation or abbreviation of "Windows for Workgroups." The accepted abbreviation is WFW. You can also type "WFW 3.11" so as to indicate that particular common version specifically.

BTW, if you can set your disdain for NetBooks aside for just a second, you can probably figure out that there was a reason they were switched wholesale to Win7 ASAP, despite the price point hit.
My guess is Microsoft stopped selling it to them. There was a point at which Windows 7 became cheaper than XP, and more economical for netbooks, which kept XP far longer than they should have.

A gig of ram was a whole heck of a lot when XP was new. More than some desktops even supported, and certainly more than a lot of contemporary laptops, but Windows XP SP3 is just a glutton -- and not in a way that actually helps the user, like the caching in Vista/7/8/8.1.

Had you actually used one with WinXPh3 and its artificial 1 MB RAM ceiling on a NetBook you might even have to agree that it was as inadequate as the folks on the NetBook fora were saying at the time mine was down and booting to a live session from an ubuntu Desktop CD for ten days while I researched options.
Windows XP Home for netbooks truly had a 1GB memory limit? I may have to find a 2GB stick of DDR and trueImage my eeePC's install of XP back onto it to see.

Netbooks suffered a greater problem though. The simple fact of the matter is that many netbook users were trying to do things on them that the hardware was simply never capable of. Despite being Intel-based, Atom processors have pretty terrible performance. When you spent your $400 or so on a Netbook in 2008-2009, you were getting a computer that was really similar to $400 desktops in 2003 or earlier. The CPU more than the memory is what made 2001's OS feel so poor on them. (Well, that and their really low display resolution often made existing Windows software really difficult to use on them. One of the purported advantages of the Ubuntu Netbook Remix is that it worked well with screens below 600px tall, which was a thing on some of the very lowest-end Netbooks. In a lot of ways, Netbooks were 2008's Chromebooks and tablets. It's just that here in 2013, Chromebooks have 1.8GHz dual-core i5s and four gigs of ram, and tablets have quad core ARM processors and two gigs of ram, and an even slimmer OS.

The people I know who have netbooks just to run one IM window, an e-mail client and Word/OneNote/Evernote or even OpenOffice/LibreOffice (which is an exceedingly heavy Java-based office suite whose performance I need to test soon) for note-taking and other reasonably light tasks (Stuff people here say their G4s are good at) had an okay experience with them.

The people I know who tried to buy a netbook as a primary computer and subsequently did things like games or heavy browsing (let's say "heavy" in the context of a netbook is more than three windows/tabs) and apps bigger/heavier than Office had a very poor experience because they were often replacing a fast, expandable desktop with a slow, non-expandable netbook.

When "CULV" systems like the HP dm1 and the Dell Latitude 13 and Vostro V130 started showing up (which was essentially the precursor to today's Ultrabooks from PC vendors, btw) -- the value proposition of a small system with a really long battery life well-suited to Internet usage became more clear because most of these systems supported two or four gigs of ram and sported processors using a more updated architecture. At the time, a system like the Dell Inspiron 11z were giving you not only a more physically comfortable system to use (with a display larger than 600px tall) but one that was much faster, with at the low end, a low-clocked single core Penryn chip. (Disclosure: I am typing this on one of the faster Penryn chips that was ever available, but this gives you an idea of the capability of these systems. If I'd bought an Inspiron 11Z in 2009, and I thought very hard about it, I would still be using it today, hopefully with the same SSD and 4GB memory upgrades the Penryn system I use got.) (1)

Today, there are a few Atom-based tablets and I believe there may actually be one or two Atom-based "netbooks" still on sale. By and large, the industry and its customers agreed that it had been an interesting experiment, but that 9/10-inches were just too small for real laptops. This is in part because tablets obviated the need for a tiny Internet machine, and did so way better than the netbooks ever did and with even less effort on the owner's part. This is also in part because the things just weren't good at anything. I believe Acer is really the only one making netbooks any more, under its own label as well as under the Gateway label.

Dell has just very recently quit the "netbook" business entirely, killing off the education-focused "Latitude 10" line with the new "Latitude 3330" which should actually be fast enough to run software and big enough for people over ten years old to use comfortably, as well as still being decidedly affordable, and if they ever update that model to a Haswell chip, it will probably get "totally wild" battery life, like the newest 13-inch MacBook Air, which now gets somewhere in the region of fifteen to seventeen hours of battery life if you're using it pretty casually. This is well beyond what even the most careful use of an iPad will net you (minus using the iPad 3/4 purely as an LTE hotspot, which will net you about 24 hours of run-time.)

I'd say that there are products for just about every reason there was to use a netbook.

Hopefully this counts as "covered."

I think we can all agree that a factory fresh install of an OS with exactly one app installation (FireFox) shouldn't really crash and burn after just two months use by anyone. So, no, we never really covered that one either.
I've been working tech support at a university since 2007 -- both for students and for faculty/staff, although generally not at the same time. I've seen a lot and I've seen it all. To be honest, I have no problem at all believing that either HP messed up the factory image so badly that this was possible, or that something you did broke it. I wouldn't call Windows "fragile" -- but it's also not hard to mess up if you either know what you're doing, or don't know what you're doing but think you do, or don't know what you're doing and just don't care. (Typically, it's something you have to have done though. "installed an app" isn't the only thing that affects Windows.

If it makes you feel any better, and because it's not worth my time having too much more discussion, I'm leaning slightly more toward "HP is very poor at consumer systems and something in their pre-load was essentially a ticking time bomb that was destined to make the machine fail if anybody bought it and used the preload instead of putting their own OS on the hardware.

(1) I just looked at the Latitude 11z. It may have been available in multiple versions. The references I found are to a product that uses first-generation Intel Core parts, which are actually a generation newer than my Penryn (last-gen Core2Duo) system. This puts the Inspiron 11z at fairly late 2009 or early 2010 as a product. "Netbooks" were very much beginning to peter out by then.

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
I'd really prefer it to be here to see if we can get some more folks from the early Mac years on board.

The convoluted history of mouse/trackball/trackpad and especially featureitis in more recent rodents is interesting. The old argument about two mouse buttons vs. three, the Mac's opting for a single button and how users on other platforms back in the day felt about moving to the Mac would be the kind of thing I'd like to see discussed here in peripherals.

Touche re the . . . I was cranky. ;)

Seeing that it was impossible to reinstall from the recovery media provided by HP over several attempts made while I was on the phone with tech support, I'll happily lay the blame on the install image, or even myself. I was happy because I bought HP_Mini just to get back online and happier yet that it was chosen as THE NetBook for taking into the field with a digital photo kit. The fact that my ISP consisted of three free-WiFi coffee shops could have been reason enough for XPh3 to die so gruesomely. I forgot that I had installed Norton Anti-Virus from a CD on the DVD burner I got with it at OfficeDepot before doing ANYTHING online.

http://gadgetwise.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/09/netting-more-memory-for-netbooks/?_r=0

http://apcmag.com/microsoft_hobbles_xp_mininotes_with_1gb_ram_limit.htm

This is interesting:

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Microsoft-Netbooks-Storage,6321.html

It looks to me like the general public demanded Windows on a lean, mean (average performance ;) ) platform designed for a leaner, meaner (vicious in its conservation of resources) OS, so I'm not at all surprised that many of those folks were unhappy within the resource limitations Microsoft imposed upon what came to be a 90% market segment penetration. It looks like Microsoft shot the entire market segment in the other foot, the first having been hobbled by form factor/price point compromises consciously made to create the Portable Net Appliance/NetBook.

http://techland.time.com/2012/12/31/the-netbook-isnt-dead-its-just-resting/

HP-Mini was one of the few NetBooks still available with a Linux install four years ago. With its 10.1" LCD/2GB/16GB SSD it's still running strong and makes the trip to work with me every day . . . along with a mouse pad, mouse and a backup mouse! ;D

I think that horse is way dead now! :beige:

So, how about those Met . . . peripherals?

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
OH man, Norton Antivirus? I'm not at all kidding when I suggest that that may have had an equal hand in the destruction of your Windows install. Norton and McAfee are popular only because computer stores and PC makers get a kickback for including it on PCs and encouraging their customers to buy a subscription. Unfortunately if Vista was still the big hot thing, Microsoft Security Essentials may not have been out yet. I was using AVG at the time.

I'd also managed to forget about Microsoft licensing XP to be sold on systems with only one gig of ram. My bet is that it would have worked with more, but that's only because at the time XP was really close to ten years old and it hadn't been licensed that way before, so it was more of an OEM sales limitation than a technical one. If you install more than 32 gigs of ram on a Windows 2008 R2 Standard machine, however, it'll list that it only has 32 gigs of physical memory in the task manager, because that limit was added in at the point of original sale.

(Somewhere, on a different forum that's technically qualified for it, I'm sure there's a really good discussion about the merits and demerits of OS licensing that allows/disallows certain numbers of users and certain quantities of

It would be very interesting to hear from early Mac users on this topic, but my guess is that many of those folks were the pragmatists who have long moved on and aren't too worried about old machines -- at least the ones who aren't already here.

 

helf

Well-known member
What is WinXPh3? Is that supposed to mean "Windows XP Home, Service Pack 3" ???

I think you make it a game to butcher abbreviations and acronyms as much as possbile, don't you? :p

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Windows XP SP3 Lite Netbook Edition would be the shortest name I've searched . . .

. . . my CD requires two lines to say: Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition for Ultra-Low Cost PCs SP3 ::)

IIRC, the HP Mini 1xxx and 3xx forums shortened that mouthful to XPh3, which makes a world of sense. I never realized folks in general didn't know there were very special licensing agreements from MS for an XP Lite, lobotomized just for NetBooks (they'd reportedly been actively trying to kill XP off for over a year when dusting off XP for Ultra-Low Cost PCs) and from Intel for contracting ATOM purchases at deep discount. Both were tied to laming the NetBook Spec to 10.1" displays, one Gig of RAM and a fairly restricted Disk Space allotment.

MS desperately wanted to kill off the popular Linux NetBooks and push sales of higher capacity Books with higher margin Vista installations. Intel wanted to sell more powerful, higher margin chips for same.

Alleged NetBook limitations, best link I've found so far anyway.

FWIW, you can probably thank the successes of the NetBook market segment for the rise of the UltraBook. NetBook popularity identified a form factor with high demand that was ripe for high end sub-notebook development. Buyers were willing to spend a lot more money for the power missing in the emasculated NetBook spec'd by our old pals from the early '90s, Win & Tel.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Microsoft products often have long names. I'm running a machine with "Microsoft Windows Small Business Server 2011 Standard" for example. I often truncate it SBS 2011 S. (SBS is canonically accepted shorthand.)

I'll admit to not having been on many netbook forums at the time. I suppose it makes sense, but it definitely remains a community-specific shorthand or nickname. Sort of like how nobody on a netbook forum would know what you were talking about if you said that you'd had a machine with some Feets.

In its time, which was in mid-2009 and earlier, the netbook limitations were reasonably well known. In the same way that Intel today defines the marketing term "Ultrabook" (whether or not they've been keeping a good handle on its use is probably up for debate though), Microsoft was basically defining what a "netbook" meant.

Netbooks led into CULVs which led into Ultrabooks, but I would argue that each of these things is a distinct thing, and that if you wanted to talk about form factors, you'd be talking essentially out of your rear end, because although most ultrabook vendors have a 11.6-inch model, I suspect most of them that get sold are 13-inchers. Given that Apple probably sells more machines that meet the UltraBook spec than any other PC vendor, and they've had their 11.6-inch model the longest, I'd be interested in seeing if anybody has some 11.6- vs 13-inch MBA sales number.

Windows 8 is also interesting because there is no "ultra low end" SKU. Windows 8 has two SKUs -- "Windows 8" -- and Windows 8 Pro. (Well, there's Enterprise as well, but for all intents and purposes the only way to get that is to have it given to you by your workplace.)

What this has done at least in part is implicitly raise the cost of a Windows 8 PC. When 8 first was released, there were alarmist reports all over saying that PC sales had slowed down. What it took the "analysts" some time to figure out is that this was at least in part to the sudden hole at the $200-600 level, especially on the mobile side of things. Fortunately, that hole is filling in fairly nicely as manufacturers figure out how to reduce the cost of these machines (sometimes using AMD parts, and sometimes by using Sandy Bridge parts from a generation or so back) and of course, with tablets and Windows RT devices.

It was said by David Pierce, writing for The Verge in a review of the Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga 11 (RT) that Windows RT and devices like the Yoga 11 with RT are the true successors to the netbook mantle.

In particular (Keep in mind, this was two months before the release of Haswell) the Yoga 11 RT has similar to or better-than netbook specs with an operating system sold by its vendor as being useful for real work but worry- and maintenance-free and both "slate" as well as "desktop" operating modes. The device is called the Yoga because you open it like a clamshell laptop, and you keep opening and keep opening it even further until you've opened it literally full circle and you have a slate tablet in your hands. It also gets really long battery life doing (for ARM) challenging tasks such as YouTube with Flash, and as an added benefit, you can remote desktop to Windows systems, map file shares, and edit word/excel files, plus sync OneNote notebooks.

If it had been available when I was a student, there is 0 question whatsoever that I would have bought the Yoga 11 RT. And I think that's important. I did buy into the Chromebook idea, and I did buy into the tablets idea, but I never (paid for) a netbook.

Basically, Netbooks are the fast food Apple Pies of the computer world -- in a bad way. (Warning: article was written before the iPad existed.) Why? Basically, netbooks are really small and portable, but they got really poor battery life. Additionally, they purport to offer extensive compatibility with existing Windows ecosystems -- you could take the knowledge you had gained when using your Pentium 4 desktop into this new ultraportable form factor, which is something off-putting about the original Netbooks which featured 128MB of ram, 600MHz celerons and only 8GB of storage. Linux just isn't something you can expect people to pick up and be okay with immediately with. But to put it lightly, the atom processors (even once they'd gained an additional gigahertz of clock frequency, bigger batteries, better displays, and a whole gigabyte of memory) just weren't going to provide enough oomph to run a good desktop computing experience.

The "zone of suck" is essentially why Apple dismissed the netbook idea back in 2007-2008 or so, and in a lot of ways, the original MacBook Air (2008, but at 13", definitely larger than a netbook) suffered from its era, because the Core2 chips Apple got Intel to make for the Air were so slow and low on performance that even with an SSD and two gigs of ram, the original Air was far from a powerhouse. Today's Haswell-based 13-inch Airs with 8 gigs of ram and 512 gigs of faster-than-SATA disk storage could probably outrun the original Mac Pro, all for $1600, and they can do it for seventeen hours at a time.

Although "can" and "a good idea" are certainly different things and if your intent is to outrun an original Mac Pro, the MacBook Pro (or a newer Mac Pro) is a better way to go, if for no other reason than that running a MacBook Air at 100% CPU utilization for a particularly long time has always been a good way to kill it.

What's even better about netbooks is that the first set of fast ones with the Z series Atoms were completely incapable of running software other than Windows. I don't think that to this day, there's a working GMA 500 driver for linux. They had good battery life (at least the Nokia Booklet did) but absolutely abysmal performance, and most of them really were priced above their station anyway.

Woefully, even though Windows RT is faster than these things, nearly as capable of "traditional computing" as most netbooks, and certainly capable of better battery life, many RT devices are really priced above their station. That and of course the vendors seem to be giving up on RT even faster than they gave up on netbooks. A smarter me would have seen this coming and bought the Lenovo Yoga 11 RT instead of the Microsoft Surface, but here we are, and I'm typing this post in notepad.exe on the Surface. (Using a bluetooth keyboard and mouse for the time being, for freedom of positioning.

As a sidenote (or maybe the only "on topic" bit) about what I've been doing lately -- I basically migrate between two places where I spend most of my time these days, my office and my room at home. When I'm doing this migration, I tend not to stop anywhere for a few hours and I no longer have classes where I perceive a need to follow along with what the instructor is doing, or work ahead on assignments, etc.

So, what I've got at the moment is a desktop at work on which I do most of my work, plus secondary and tertiary desktops that I remote into for certain things (like a Windows 7 machine to run the Windows Server 2008/2010 admin stack on.) I also have some Mac laptops at work.

At home, I've got a Mac desktop and a variety of PC laptops I've used over the years, and TECT, the server. Every once in a great while, the temptation strikes to try to take a regular laptop with me, but what I've realized is that I almost never need the oomph of a full laptop, nor do I ever feel like carrying four to six pounds of Intel, plus a charger.

Enter the Surface RT. With the type cover, I can basically use the Surface RT for anything I want all day long without worrying about carrying the charger. It weighs almost nothing and it does everything I really want to do when I'm out and about anyway, which is look at maps, type documents, and perform complicated mathematical analyses in Excel.

Because of that, I really hope that the vendors pursue RT and that Microsoft keeps it alive in what's essentially the testing phase for it as a product. It's interesting not only because it's "Windows" but without the maintenance and fuss and muss of "Windows" but also because it's not x86, and it's one of the first modern non-x86 computers with a desktop experience I've had in a while. It's sort of like a particularly well-dressed Raspberry Pi, but faster and with Windows. Also, for the Surface in particular, the reviews that peg it as a very tiny desktop computer that folds flat and fits in a bag are pretty right about this particular machine's design and form factor.

While I'm on the RT tangent-- I'd really love to see it come to other form factors. I can't express enough how much I like the Lenovo Yoga 11 RT and hope that they update it with new components for Windows 8.1. HP recently announced a 21-inch Android tablet called the Slate 21, and all I can think about is how I would love to have a Windows RT version of that device.

Going back to the "What I'm using" notion a little bit-- a 21.5-inch RT tablet that stays on my desk at home would become an awesome information appliance + thin client. Big displays are a lot more efficient than they used to be and Tegra 3 draws almost no power at all. THe Surface RT is currently drawing a grand 2w from my UPS, at what's basically full tilt for RT.

Unfortunately, this is one of those situations where I really want somebody to shut up and take my money, even though it may or may not be practical for everybody else. Unfortunately, even if Hewlett Packard thought that Windows RT on a tethered 21-inch "tablet" was a good idea, Microsoft might not let them do so, and HP has abandoned RT anyway. I would ask Dell for it, but they've one-upped me (but also given me power I don't necessarily need or want) by giving the product I want an i3/i5, 4/8 gigs of ram and a big hard disk. This also doubled the price and put it well out of the league of RT. It's that awkward spot of computign where it's too powerful to buy for hilarity and to be a thin client, but not powerful enough for my actual tasks which would use its x86 processors.

 

helf

Well-known member
'

Windows XP SP3 Lite Netbook Edition would be the shortest name I've searched . . .. . . my CD requires two lines to say: Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition for Ultra-Low Cost PCs SP3 ::)

IIRC, the HP Mini 1xxx and 3xx forums shortened that mouthful to XPh3, which makes a world of sense.
ah, OK. Still weird.

FWIW, you can probably thank the successes of the NetBook market segment for the rise of the UltraBook. NetBook popularity identified a form factor with high demand that was ripe for high end sub-notebook development. Buyers were willing to spend a lot more money for the power missing in the emasculated NetBook spec'd by our old pals from the early '90s, Win & Tel.
'eh, maybe a little bit. I'd venture to say the netbook didn't impact this much at all as tiny laptops had been around for a LOOOOONG time prior. I have a Toshiba Portege 3110ct from 1999 with a p2-300mhz/192mb ram, 10" LCD, etc, which is ridiculously thin and tiny, even by today's standards. Demand for extremely portable laptops has been around since laptops were invented. The problem was cramming high-end tech into small form factors and, having managed that, powering it for any length of time. My Portege gets 2-3 hours per charge.

You have the entire Libretto line of laptops from Toshiba as well as Fujitsu's Lifebook series which were all tiny. NEC had their own as well as Sony and most other manufacturers around at the time.

If anything, netbooks showed what was already known = People want tiny computers. The price of netbooks allowed more people to have the desired tiny, mostly. But the demographic for ultraportables and 'netbooks' are pretty different and probably don't overlap much. People that want a netbook form factor with a netbook price will buy a netbook. If they cant, they will get a cheap fullsized laptop. People that want netbook form factor, or smaller, with a mind for performance and do not mind paying more, will continue buying the better options. I run into this, personally, helping out people with purchase decisions.

 
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