Can't get Quadra 650 SCSI set up.

[KieranD212]

I can't get my Quadra 650 to recognise its CD drive or the 80pin drive i added. I managed to get a 7.5 network access disk made on my old windows 98se computer, so it does boot.

Not sure if its the 50 pin cable or a termination problem. This is my first Macintosh of any kind, not related but i also have an Apple II E Enhanced. I have a Macintosh Color Display for the Quadra which does work fine.

The HDD and Optical drive spin up and get power. I'm using a 80pin to 64/50pin adapter. Also i was told 8.1 would be okay on an 040 as long as i had enough ram.

 

[Macdrone]

First your cd rom has scsi I'd set as 0 and 1. 0 is the main hard disk ID, so remove that jumper. Termination on the chain is always the way to go so termination power jumper is correct there. Ill look into the hard drive but the cd rom for sure to start is an issue. Also the cd rom may need a Mac driver if it isn't apple branded.

 

[KieranD212]

That my friend is the original CD drive for the Quadra 650, it's back in the computer now but i believe its a 2x speed drive Apple 300 plus if that helps.

 

[Macdrone]

Ok that drive is huge and disk tools or a formatting software must be used to even see it. It must be initialized, partitioned into 2 gb sections or less. Hard disk tool kit may work if the disk tools disk can't see it. Since its your first Mac I suggest finding someone who is close on the forums to help you as you will need software you don't have.

Good Luck.

 

[Macdrone]

Did the cd drive operate from the beginning? That's good it's an apple drive so its bootable. The reason I asked if it worked from the get go is the ID jumpers should not have two ID's set.

 

[KieranD212]

Even without the HDD, the CD Drive should boot from disc without a hard drive by holding C at boot. Will i be able to get the hard drive formatted without using another Mac? SCSI! i'm glad i use a regular IDE CF adapter in my Amiga 1200.

Cheers for the help.

EDIT: Yeah the drive never booted at all, i know the drive gets power. It came only without a HDD, i just imagined the CD drive would be set correctly. The Seagate drive thats 80pin is what i had to hand without spending lots of money on a 50pin drive.

 

[Macdrone]

That's why I asked if the cd drive worked from the start also. It may just be dead it is like twenty years old. I mean mine are fifty fifty on working so its a toss up on yours working. With two scsi IDs set it will not boot off CD. It will fail to do anything. All scsi pieces must have a single unique scsi ID. Hard drive is zero all else are higher.

 

[Macdrone]

The hard drive may not need I'd set as bus may or may not set its ID to zero. You can try both way as one way will work the other wont. Of course terminate the drive.

 

[KieranD212]

http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/manuals/scsi/75789506g.pdf

Manual for the HDD, i forgot i had it bookmarked. I've set the jumper to 0.

 

[KieranD212]

alright i set the cd drive to ID1 and still nothing

 

[Brett B.]

It shouldn't matter what SCSI ID you have your drives set to as long as they are different. Have you tried setting the hard drive to 1 and the CD-ROM to 2? Also some SCSI hard drives have a termination power jumper as well, it may be on your adapter board. I'd remove that on the hard drive but leave it on the CD-ROM so that the last device in your chain is terminated.

 

[trag]

There seems to be a little confusion about how one sets a SCSI ID.

The jumpers, ID0, ID1 and ID2 are the three bits, 0, 1, 2 of the SCSI ID. With three bits, one may count from 0 to 7.

So, if you put a jumper on ID0, you have ID = 1. If you put a jumper on ID1, you have ID = 2. If you put a jumper on ID2, you have ID = 4. Put jumpers on all three and you have ID = 1 + 2 + 4 = 7, which is bad, because the host of the SCSI bus is usually 7.

In the photo, you have a jumper on parity, which the Macintosh won't care about one way or the other, and jumpers on ID0 and ID1, which gives you a setting of ID = 3. This is the typical SCSI ID used for a CDROM drive on the Mac, and as such was just fine.

However, the CDROM drive does not have any provision for providing SCSI termination. At least, none that is documented. It is entirely possible that Toshiba built termination enable into the unlabeled jumper on the drive, but left it unlabeled because Apple did not want it.

Apple tended to supply termination by providing a four position SCSI cable, putting the hard drive and CDROM drive on two of the connectors, and a cable terminator on the third. The logic board connector gets the fourth, of course.

So, I see two avenues open to you. First, see if you can find a Toshiba part number on the drive (something like XM7nnn, most likely) and if so, try to find an old datasheet/manual for that drive. Failing that, get an internal 50 pin IDC (IDC is the type of connector) connector terminator which you can put on an unused connector on your SCSI cable. Then plug one end of the SCSI cable into the logic board. Plug the terminator into the other end of your SCSI cable. Plug your CDROM drive into one of the connectors in between those two.

Do not enable Termination Power on the CDROM drive. It is already supplied by the Macintosh logic board and supplying it from more than one device can create voltage contention issues which may prevent the SCSI bus from working.

Now, test the CDROM drive to see if the Mac will see it. Holding down the C key at boot, specifically looks for a device at ID3. So if you tried to boot in this manner, with the CDROM set to a different ID, it probably wouldn't work (not sure if the machine will seek other SCSI IDs after it fails to find anything at ID = 3).

You will need a bootable CDROM for this test. As long as the CDROM drive is Apple branded, any bootable CDROM should do the trick.

After you get things sorted out with the CDROM drive, try adding the hard drive to the cable and see if it works. However, unless you got a SCA to 50 pin adapter which actually has termination on board (none of the < $20 ones do) then you way have termination issues with the adapted SCA drive.

Even though your cable is now properly terminated, the problem is that the upper 8 bits of your wide SCA drive are not terminated. They are not connected to anything, so there is no way for them to be terminated. Without an adapter which is selectively able to terminate just the upper data byte, there is no way to terminate the upper bits. However, despite that, a cheaply adapted SCA drive will usually work anyway, provided that the bottom 8 bits and control lines (50 wires on SCSI ribbon) are properly terminated.

 

[KieranD212]

The Mac came with a 50 pin cable with 3 connectors, one for the motherboard, 2 for devices; ONLY a CD Drive was connected. I think the stock jumper settings where fine and it wont boot because nothing is terminated. Would i only need to terminate the last device? The CD drive is UNDER the HDD so the HDD is the last device on the "chain".

 

[tecneeq]

Yes, the last device in the chain should be terminated. Problem is, SCSI signals bounce back at the end of the connection. The signal then is seen on all devices again, but with a slight time difference, thus smudging all signals. A terminator (basically a resistor) avoids that.

I think all you need to know is in this document:

http://support.apple.com/kb/ta27743

To get a running system, i would buy one Zip100/SCSI and one Zip100/USB. The latter can be used with BasiliskII. Basically you dd a Zip100 medium into a file, format it with a running system inside BasiliskII, slap a MacOS, MacOS installer and hard disk tools on it, and dd it back to the Zip100. Then you boot from that on your Q650, partition the disk (bootable partitions should be within the first 2 GB), install the MacOS system and reboot.

Of course other options exist. Network bootable floppy and a netatalk server with the MacOS installer on it. Or put the HDD into a system where BasiliskII can access it.

 

[KieranD212]

Can i stick a passthrough terminator right on the SCSI adapter? or do i have to buy a 4 connection cable and stick a terminator on the very end?

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

If you've got room for both the SCA adapter and an IDC50 passthru terminator, I don't see any problem with that setup.

@trag: I'm glad you got the ID issue straightened out. Nice tidbit on the "C" Key = SCSI ID 3 for boot drive. Is that the same as for using externals with the four-key combo before the advent of internal CDs? Were Aple external CDs customarily set to ID 3?

I've yet to have any termination issues at all with SCA drives. Are U320 drives built with active termination on board for hot-swapping?

 

[KieranD212]

Yeah there is plenty of room for a passthrough terminator and the adapter.

Look what i found http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/iguides/scsi/89507b.pdf

2. Configure terminationIf you are installing the drive in a system that has other SCSI devices

installed, terminate only the end devices on the SCSI bus (cable). This drive

does not have internal terminators or any other way of adding internal termination on the drive. You must provide external termination when termination

is required. This is normally done by adding an inline terminator on the end

of the cable. See Figure 3 for an illustration showing a system configuration

that uses an external terminator.

• Use active (ANSI SCSI-2 Alternative 2) single-ended terminators when

terminating a bus operating in single-ended mode.

• Use SPI-2-compliant active low voltage differential terminators when terminating a SCSI Ultra2 bus operating in LVD mode.

• The host adapter is normally on the end of the bus and internally terminated. You can configure your bus with another device on the end if you

remove termination from the host adapter.

So Single Ended means i have to stick a terminator on the last connector meaning i need a new 4 way cable? I'm going to assume whatever drive apple stuck in there had internal termination.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Nope, that may be the way Apple did it, but the same cable with a passthru terminator on the adapter should be fine.

I've got some really nice 68 pin cables set up with the terminator hanging off the end of the cable, but nothing special ought to be necessary for SCSI 1 on the Mac.

Now that I think of it . . . have you tried a different internal cable at all as yet? :?:

 

[KieranD212]

I've got plenty of PC related stuff like IDE and SATA cables spare, but no SCSI internal 50 pin cables so id have to buy a new one to test. Right i think i'll cost a passthrough terminator. It won't matter if its a 50pin or a 80pin SCA?