Apple Lisa 2/5 Ram + Keyboard problems

[flexo]

Hi everyone!

I recently bought (for a hefty price) an Apple Lisa 2/5. Unfortunately, two problems are present in the unit:

1. I get a MEM 71 error every time I boot. Sometimes, it thinks it's a Lisa 1 for some reason and when I click on "Startup from" it gives me Floppy 1 and Floppy 2 options along with ProFile option. When this happens, it freezes in the hourglass window screen forever. When it has self awareness and shows only the Floppy 1 and ProFile options, it boots properly. There is a 50/50 chance this happens.
2. Half of the keys on the keyboard does not work. I've opened it and saw the plastic/mylar(?) that's supposed to circuit the electricity is almost transparent on the keys that does not work. Unfortunately, the keys that don't work include space and enter, so the machine is almost unusable for anything other than clicking stuff around.

Unfortunately the seller is giving me the "oh it worked before I shipped it" treatment so I got no help from him other than some links I could easily google myself.

What do you guys think? Are these problems easy to fix? Or is this a dud system and I should pressure him more and get my money back?

Thank you so much!

 

[haplain]

The keyboard issue is something that just happens with time. It's not the sellers fault... here is how you can fix the keyboard. There was a seller on eBay that used to sell them but they are also fairly easy to make. 

 

[flexo]

Yeah I opened the keyboard and found out that half of the pads were melted/corroded. I found a seller on eBay that sells replacement pads from germany. Not sure how to fix the personality problem that prevents it from booting up other than keeping it on for ~10 minutes - that for reason manages to fix it, not sure why..

Thank you, by the way!

 

[BadGoldEagle]

I get a MEM 71 error every time I boot. Sometimes, it thinks it's a Lisa 1 for some reason and when I click on "Startup from" it gives me Floppy 1 and Floppy 2 options along with ProFile option. 

Hey flexo.

You should check the ROM revision. It seems that some ROMs were compatible with both twiggy and 400k drives... 

From LisaFAQ:

Known CPU board ROM versions:

3A - indicates a screen modification kit has been installed for use with MacWorks. Also, the Lisa Video state ROM has been changed for the new video timing, and (usually) a transformer has been installed between the video board and the CRT. 3A ROMs will not work with Lisa Office System, Workshop, Xenix, etc. Part Number: 341-0346A and 341-0347A

H - the latest ROM for Lisa Office System. Also compatible with MacWorks and Xenix. Part Number: 341-0175H and 341-0176H

G - Very Rare - development only? Part Number: 341-0175G and 341-0176G

F - Early Lisa 2 ROM for Lisa Office System. Also compatible with MacWorks and Xenix. 341-0175F and 341-0176F

E - Very rare - development only Part Number: 341-0175E and 341-0176E

D - somewhat common, might work with both 3.5" floppy as well as Twiggies Part Number: 341-0175D and 341-0176D

C - Lisa 1 ROM (rare) Part Number: 341-0175C and 341-0176C

B - Lisa 1 ROM (very rare) - development only? Part Number: 341-0175B and 341-0176B

A - Lisa 1 ROM (very rare) - development only? Part Number: 341-0175A and 341-0176A

Also, check the I/O ROM.

Known I/O board ROM versions:

A8 - Lisa 2 Part Number: 341-0290B

88 - Lisa 2/10 Part Number: 341-0261D

40 - Lisa 1 - for use with Twiggies (very rare) Part Number: unknown

Maybe this Lisa started out in life as a Lisa 1 and was upgraded at some point. You can tell if it was originally a Lisa 1 by the serial number. If it used to be a Lisa 1, the serial should begin with a B... Also, a 2/5 should have a Lite adapter. If it doesn't have one, it can cause problems.

About the MEM 71 error. This might help you diagnose what's wrong. The parity issue might be the one causing problems with the disk drives. But maybe you already knew about this article... 

The keyboard is usually easily mendable. Just buy or make new pads yourself and it will work as good as new!

ONE THING YOU SHOULD DO BEFORE ATTEMPTING ANYTHING ON A 2/5: REMOVE THE BATTERY PACK, otherwise this will happen, inevitably.

 

[flexo]

Hi BadGoldEagle,

Thank you so much for the information!

I've just checked, the ROM revision is H and the serial number starts with "B".

Weirdly, it does not show the I/O ROM revision on the failure screen, just the letter "H" and nothing else.. is that normal?

I can't access the service menu since the Apple Key doesn't work

If you remove the front cover, there is also a card on the right side of the CRT as well as an unused connector - is that what you mean by the "Lite" adaptor?

(It looks pretty much like this)

For the MEM 71 error the person who sold it to me told me it's because he removed the battery pack.. I guess I should double check the battery though. I'll try to clean the connectors and swap them, and if that doesn't fix it, will wait for the replacement pads to arrive so I can follow the instructions

I've also realised that the floppy drive doesn't let me insert floppies.. the floppy goes nearly all the way in, but gets stuck 1-2cms in. Does that mean I have to lubricate it or it's simply broken?

And another problem, that just started yesterday is that it refuses to shut down now.. it "puts everything away", then gets stuck at the "Lisa is shutting down" screen..

I hope I can restore this machine someday, somehow but everyday it seems to be getting worse

(UPDATE: I've check the board and it is missing the battery and there is no visible damage.)

 

[CelGen]

For the MEM 71 error the person who sold it to me told me it's because he removed the battery pack.

Wrong. The Lisa doesn't care if the battery is present or not. It will boot regardless though your clock will always reset when you unplug the machine or open it.

I have seen the dual floppy "boot from" window before. It was more or less glitchyness that I was experiencing while troubleshooting the I/O board. Reseating the chips and cleaning the large edge connectors and slots does not hurt.

While it's clearly using the icons for the 3.5" floppy drives a dual drive option was never offered or sold.

I've also realised that the floppy drive doesn't let me insert floppies.. the floppy goes nearly all the way in, but gets stuck 1-2cms in. Does that mean I have to lubricate it or it's simply broken?

The drive will need to be removed, cleaned and relubricated. The old grease after 30 years likes to harden and seize the assembly up. While you are in the drive cage, yes that small board is the Lisa Lite and that one random power cable that seemingly plugs into nothing is the remains of the wiring harness that powered the Twiggy floppy drives so yes, your Lisa is a 2/5 that was initially a Lisa 1. It's not uncommon at all.

The keyboard will be for the most part unusable until it is repadded. You can buy repalcement pads but I found that a dollar store mylar baloon, some foam weather stripping and a punch will make the exact same replacement pads.

As for the ram if you can source replacement chips one way to track down the bad chip is to piggyback the new chip over the soldered in chip. Once the error clears you know which chip is bad and you can desolder and install the new one (or two)

And another problem, that just started yesterday is that it refuses to shut down now.. it "puts everything away", then gets stuck at the "Lisa is shutting down" screen..

Again, clean the edge connectors and reseat any chips on the I/O board.

 

[flexo]

Hi CelGen!

Thank you so much. I'll take a look at the I/O boards this weekend, hopefully some cleaning will fix at least some of the problems up.

I was afraid to do it before since.. well everything feels flimsy and I was too scared that I'll break something but I guess I have no other choice.

For the keyboard, I've ordered this (since I am not good with stuff like that lazy) and it should come in a few days.

Thank you all for the replies -- I'll take a look this weekend and hopefully come back with good news.

 

[ScutBoy]

I'll be interested to hear if these foam pads fit/work well with the Lisa keyboard.

 

[lisa2]

Weirdly, it does not show the I/O ROM revision on the failure screen, just the letter "H" and nothing else.. is that normal?

No, that's not normal.  If the I/O ROM rev is not showing, this means that the 6504 CPU or static RAM in the FDC part of I/O board is not working.  The seller's story about the missing battery causing the error 71 is incorrect.  Try removing the COPS chip and look closely at/under the socket.  If you see any corrosion, then the batteries had leaked and damaged the board, and the seller may have cleaned it up cosmetically, but one the corrosion starts it's a cancer that eats up the board from the inside out that's hard to stop.  You may  have to will have to replace the I/O board.  

Rick

 

[flexo]

Hi Rick!

I've removed the chip to see if there is anything weird looking under, but couldn't find anything.

All in all, there doesn't seem to be any corrosion. (although I know almost nothing about electronics )

I've taken photos of the failure screen and the chip and the socket here.

Thank you so much for your help!

And ScutBoy, I'll post the results as soon as I get the pads - the seller says it fits Lisa keyboards, we'll see.

(PS: I've spent 10 minutes trying to remove the power supply but it doesn't budge. the top part is stuck somewhere.)

 

[lisa2]

Hi Rick!

I've removed the chip to see if there is anything weird looking under, but couldn't find anything.

All in all, there doesn't seem to be any corrosion. (although I know almost nothing about electronics )

In your photos, I see corrosion on the board.  Look in the battery area at the traces running to R45, R46, C46.  Note how these traces are almost black in color, compared to the normal light green color.  The battery that was there surely did leak and the corrosion has migrated down those traces under the solder mask.  Also look at the dark traces near the bottom of the cops chips in the C52 area.

My guess is that the board was cleaned up on the surface, its also a little concerning that it appears as if the battery pack was just torn off the board with out using any tools. 

Rick

 

[aplmak]

I'd replace the small axial capacitors on the memory boards as well.. I did all of mine.. perhaps that is causing the memory issue... Those capacitors are just as old as the ones in the power supply, video board, CPU board, and other boards...

 

[flexo]

Oh dear.. do you think it's beyond repair or I can "brush" that off with alcohol or something? (or would it just damage it further?) It would probably be a few years until an I/O board pops up on eBay And yeah, the battery connector looks like they've just ripped it off.. I also saw a lot of chips that got replaced, including one that says "Sun Remarketing" around the top-left corner. I can provide more photos if anyone is interested.

For the capacitors, I would probably do more damage than good with a soldering iron. and unfortunately, the only person I know who is good at that is thousands of miles away now. If someone is offering such a service I would be willing to pay for that though.

 

[rsolberg]

The Sun Remarketing chip is interesting. That means they likely upgraded the board at one point, either when it was new and they were the reseller, or as an upgrade service. Maybe your machine has the necessary upgrade to use 800k floppies - something Apple didn't implement on the Lisa or Mac XL.

 

[lisa2]

I do think the board is very reparable, but it will take some electronic skills, the only alcohol needed may be a beer for the brave soul who takes on the job!  Keep watching this board and ebay, a solution for these rotting boards may be available sooner than you think.

The SUN ROM is very common, most likely you have a 800K drive.  The mod requires no other changes than the ROM to the IO board or system.

Good luck!

Rick

 

[CelGen]

its also a little concerning that it appears as if the battery pack was just torn off the board with out using any tools. 
Most of the people I know who have Lisas as well did that as well. Pull the pack and flex the leads until the spot welds break.

The Sun Remarketing chip is interesting. That means they likely upgraded the board at one point, either when it was new and they were the reseller, or as an upgrade service. Maybe your machine has the necessary upgrade to use 800k floppies - something Apple didn't implement on the Lisa or Mac XL.

It also means that he cannot run LOS. Until he swaps the ROMs and drives it's MacWorks or bust.

Corrosion damage on the Lisa is very, very much repairable. It's a 2-layer circuit board with full schematics available online and using a LOT of off-the-shelf IC's and components around the battery area which usually takes the most abuse. The ROM images are also available around the internet so items such as the I/O ROM can be reburned to the EPROM. The only exception is the COPS chip which contains a mask ROM with some Apple-specific code. Even my extremely heavily damaged board which is pictured in the third reply above was repaired and currently works with no IC's, capacitors or discrete components needing to be replaced. I still suggest you piggyback some ram chips to track down your memory issues as it's more likely to be bad ram than bad capacitors.

 

[rsolberg]

"Lisa 7/7 users may also take advantages of an 800K drive by using the Lisa Office System

driver available from Sun Remarketing for $15."

From ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/applelisa/Lisa_Do-It-Yourself_Guide.pdf

 

[lisa2]

It also means that he cannot run LOS. Until he swaps the ROMs and drives it's MacWorks or bust.

No, this is incorrect.  Flexo has verified he has the proper "H" ROMs to run the LisaOS.  The LisaOS has no issues with Sun 800K IO FDC ROM.  He will still need a par port hard disk to run the LisaOS.

"Lisa 7/7 users may also take advantages of an 800K drive by using the Lisa Office System

driver available from Sun Remarketing for $15."

From ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/applelisa/Lisa_Do-It-Yourself_Guide.pdf

Yes, I have this software and I can confirm it works well allowing you to store up to 800K on a disk under the LisaOS and the 7/7 apps.  It's kind of neat the way it works, it will fill one side of the disk first, then write to the other side of the disk.  This way you can still use the 800K formatted disks in a standard Lisa 400K drive, and read/write any data that was on the 1st side of the disk.  I don't know any other system that can do this.

Rick

 

[lisa2]

The only exception is the COPS chip which contains a mask ROM with some Apple-specific code.

A brand new replacement for the COPS chips is now available:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Lisa-X-COPS-Replacement-for-Apple-Lisa-COP421-Chip-I-O-Coprocessor-/142137574733?hash=item21180f454d:g:XKQAAOSw8w1X8qER

I have one and it works perfectly.

Rick