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Any suggestions for a good app for creating a simple 2-page newsletter on a Mac Color Classic II?

Huxley

Well-known member
My wife recently had a fun idea: we should create a simple 2-page (front/back) newsletter around retrocomputing topics, as part of our promotional efforts for the Retro Roadshow (our hands-on retrocomputing event series in the San Francisco area), and we should create it on a vintage computer. I have two vintage machines which live more-or-less permanently in our small apartment: a heavily-upgraded Amiga 2000, and a Mac Color Classic II. For various reasons I won't bore you with right now, I think the CCII would be the easier machine for this project, but I'm not sure what software would be best here. Should I be looking for an old edition of PageMaker, or can you guys suggest something else? My eventual goal is to take the finished document and convert it to PDF (understanding that I may need to do some goofy stuff in-between, like export the doc as a graphic file and then do PDF conversion on a modern Mac).

Any tips or suggestions would be welcome!

 
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dcr

Well-known member
PageMaker 5 will run under system 7 on a 68030 processor.  PageMaker 4.2 might be faster, but PM5 would be a better option, IMO.

I thought that InDesign could open a PM5 file, but I was wrong.  So it must be PageMaker 6 or newer that it can open.  That would be an easier way to get it into a more modern file format for PDF conversion.  PageMaker 6 and 6.5 will run on a 68040; not sure about a 68030.  If either of those will run on a 68030, you're golden.  Because you can take that file and, assuming you have the same fonts available on a newer Mac, open that file using InDesign CS (don't know if CC still opens PM files), and then convert to a PDF.

If you cannot run PageMaker 6, then you will need to output from PageMaker 5 (or earlier) to Acrobat Distiller to "print" the file to a PDF.  I've done that multiple times.  PM5 works better for this than PM4, as I recall.

Other options might be an older version of QuarkXPress, but then I don't know the process of getting that converted to a PDF.  Maybe Acrobat Distiller again.

Sometimes, you can also print to a PostScript file and bring that to a newer Mac and convert it to a PDF.  Fonts will be the biggest challenge there.

 

jessenator

Well-known member
If you already have InDesign/PageMaker experience, the PM5 would be the less painful tool to use. Having used only Adobe products, the first time I had to open Quark was a living nightmare.

Might be more steps, but can you "print" to a PostScript file from PageMaker and then distill it to PDF on a modern machine? or would that defeat the whole retro workflow point? My experience has shown that I have fewer issues with the PostScript route when working with older, or esoteric (Publisher…) formats, especially with graphical integrity.

 

Huxley

Well-known member
Thanks for the tips and suggestions! FWIW, I'm not too concerned with keeping the entire "workflow" retro - as long as the bulk of the actual content in the newsletter is created and the layout work is done on a retro machine, I'm happy leveraging modern gear and software to finish it up. This is for fun, not to prove any points :)  

H.

 

dcr

Well-known member
Another consideration is, if you are going to do this regularly, you might want to consider using different software for each issue just to highlight the different applications that were available at the time.  So, for Mac, you'd have PageMaker, QuarkXPress and Ready Set Go!  If you wanted to include word processing software which could do a simple newsletter, then you could add MacWrite, WriteNow, FullWrite, Word, WordPerfect, etc.  You might be able to do a newsletter using drawing programs like Illustrator or FreeHand as well.

 

pcamen

Well-known member
I used to produce quirky and humorous (at least to me) family newsletters on my SE/30 back in the day using Pagemaker.  My 10 yo daughter was inspired last summer and wanted to create family newsletters.  I was very shocked at how hard it is to find a decent page layout application for Macs and iPads today.  I tried a few stand-alone Mac apps, and they were terrible.  I also tried Pages, which would have allowed us to work on it both on the her iPad and my Mac, and I found it really really hard to figure out how to do simple layout stuff, and it had lots of quirks, like if you moved an element a little, the element it barely touched would completely disappear.  This is so far from how I remember Pagemaker being.  I also tried the open source Scribus, and didn't find it particularly great.

Quark Xpress is still available but costs an arm and a leg AFAIK.

So I guess I'll extend the question to the modern day era.  Anyone use something they consider great with modern Macs or iPads? 

 

Huxley

Well-known member
So I guess I'll extend the question to the modern day era.  Anyone use something they consider great with modern Macs or iPads? 
I'm probably showing my bias since I was working for Apple back in the pre-iWork era (I sold many copies of Keynote when it was a 1.0 standalone retail product), but I still love and use Pages (and Keynote / Numbers) constantly. I agree that they have their quirks (esp. on iOS), but if you spend 30 minutes watching a tutorial or something, I think you'll find that they're right up there with the very best native Mac apps available today.

 

dcr

Well-known member
So I guess I'll extend the question to the modern day era.  Anyone use something they consider great with modern Macs or iPads? 
Affinity Publisher (Mac and iPad.  Windows too.)

Others besides Quark and Scribus which you already mentioned:

iCalamus

iStudio Publisher

Swift Publisher

Haven't tried any of those so can't say whether they are great or not.

Another option is CorelDraw.  They've had an inconsistent commitment to the Mac platform at best, but CorelDraw for Mac is supposed to be able to do page layout as well as illustration so it's another to consider.

 

dcr

Well-known member
I still love and use Pages (and Keynote / Numbers) constantly.
I use Pages '09 for writing though I do worry whether anything will be able to open a Pages document in the future.  Still have a bunch of files in Pages '08 too.

My impression is that is been downhill since Pages '09.  Same with Numbers too.  My father has the current version (or current-ish) on his computer and when he needs help with something, it can be frustrating trying to figure things out sometimes.  The newer versions lack features of the older versions as well as possess silly interface changes that often make no sense.  Modern Apple products lack the intuitiveness of older Apple products, IMHO.

 

dcr

Well-known member
Wow, I just watched a demo and it does look really cool.  iPad app isn't released yet, but expected this year. 
Mac, Windows and iPad all use the same file format too, so you can work on the same file on whatever platform you want.

And, if you have Photo and Designer, the three sort of integrate together (versions 1.7 or newer), so you can be in Publisher and, if you have an illustration or photo you want to work on, you can click a button and you're basically "in" Photo or Designer without leaving Publisher and you can make your edits.

If I recall, all three programs use the same file format, so you can open a Publisher file in Designer or Photo and vice versa.  So, if you don't have Publisher, you could open (I think) a Publisher file in Designer; you just wouldn't be able to do Publisher-stuff in it.

Publisher doesn't yet have all the features of InDesign.  There is no data merge / mail merge, for example.  That, to me, is a biggie.  I look and think that I think that feature started in PageMaker 6 or 6.5 and those came out in the nineties, so twenty years later, that sort of thing should almost be a standard feature by now.  (I was also surprised QuarkXPress doesn't have this capability either; there are XTensions that can do it, but they aren't cheap.)

There is something else that I was surprised Publisher didn't have.  It seems to me it was something I considered very basic so I was surprised it didn't have that feature.  I cannot remember what it was though.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
More modern-trending, but anecdotally:

XPress has always been more difficult and frustrating to use than Adobe. I learned inDesign before I learned PageMaker, but iD and PM are very very similar overall tools.

In high school (~2004-2006) I produced a couple small zines, printed on a big copy machine at the office with inDesign.

inDesign is probably my favorite for that reason, and shortly thereafter when I went to college, I bought Adobe CS3 on student discount, and made sure I had a copy of inDesign.

On Windows, you can use Publisher as well, it's arguably not as good for high end use cases, but it should be fine for small zines and newsletters, especially something you're going to print yourself on an office laser printer.

Quark has been trying to make a Big Deal out of the fact that you can get XPress without a subscription, but Affinity is likely a better or easier buy if you have a Mac. It appears that Quark is trying to get people on a sort of part-subscription plan where you buy up a couple years worth of major version upgrades in advance, but the base product at the time you buy is still perpetually licensed. Entry on that is $295, which isn't that bad if that's the kind of program you need.

My impression is that is been downhill since Pages '09.
I wouldn't put it this way at all. Granted, to be honest, Pages has never really been a great format to use if you intend to keep a set of documents around long-term. Microsoft's own formats are "way" better for that, but plain text or RTF or exporting everything to PDF or postscript for read-only archival is your best strategy there.

Apple simplified iWork a lot post '09. Mostly the same thing that happened in that same general era as Final Cut and I believe Logic, and OS X Server. The impression I get is that it's still quality software, but they took some of the power user buttons out. Given that it's been, you know, ten years, I'd imagine most of that stuff is back, albeit, rearranged a bit.

Anyway, Automator or AppleScript might have a way to bulk convert documents to newer file formats or to something better suited for archival.

Disclaimer: I've never been a daily user of Pages, except in the early 2010s when I was using an iPad on the regular, before Office for iPad shipped. If you power-use office software, Microsoft Office is the place to be, arguably even on a Mac.

There is no data merge / mail merge, for example.  That, to me, is a biggie.  I look and think that I think that feature started in PageMaker 6 or 6.5 and those came out in the nineties, so twenty years later, that sort of thing should almost be a standard feature by now.
I didn't realize PageMaker had that. I would've expected that to be in the Frame(maker) realm.

Microsoft Publisher has it, although it's kind of an obvious thing there from the mail merge and office automation perspective. 

 

dcr

Well-known member
XPress has always been more difficult and frustrating to use than Adobe. I learned inDesign before I learned PageMaker, but iD and PM are very very similar overall tools.
I didn't like Quark's interface even when it was the top dog.  I started with PageMaker then went to InDesign.  InDesign might as well have just been called PageMaker because it feels more like an evolution than a brand new thing.

On Windows, you can use Publisher as well, it's arguably not as good for high end use cases, but it should be fine for small zines and newsletters, especially something you're going to print yourself on an office laser printer.
Microsoft Publisher or Affinity Publisher?  I remember on the Affinity forums, some people advised them to use a different name because of the bad impression Microsoft Publisher left on so many people.  Obviously, they didn't listen.

Anyway, Automator or AppleScript might have a way to bulk convert documents to newer file formats or to something better suited for archival.
I probably need to look into doing that sometime.  Final copies of stuff are usually saved in multiple formats, but the working copies are just in Pages, mostly.  I'd guess I have around 2,500 (or more . . . probably more) Pages documents, so, yeah, finding a way to automate the conversion process would be ideal.

I didn't realize PageMaker had that. I would've expected that to be in the Frame(maker) realm.
It's apparently not sophisticated enough for some people's needs, but it's been very usable for me.  Usually, it's for a mail merge, where we're personalizing letters and sometimes addressing envelopes.  But, I also use it to layout business cards when a company orders a bunch.  Also, I have a custom invoice set up for invoicing.  I enter the data into Numbers, export the relevant date to .CSV and then print the invoices from InDesign.  I'm sure I could do some basic invoicing in Numbers for that instead, but I have artwork and such on my invoices so they look pretty.  LOL.

You can also drop in images as part of the data merge so it's not limited to just text.

 

pcamen

Well-known member
There is no data merge / mail merge, for example.
I didn't know PM had that either.  I've always used Excel / Word for mail merges.  And more recently we moved a multi-user spreadsheet from Excel with mail merge to Word for sales quotes, to Google Sheets and Pages with a plugin for the merge part.

As far as mail merge with page layout programs, I get personalizing letters and addressing envelopes, but that is certainly within the realm of Word and using address labels with a mail merge.  Invoices again seem like something that Word is the perfect candidate for.  We actually use Excel now to generate invoices using data from a custom CSV export system I built from our MRP system.  Way better than the old tractor feed on custom printed paper option. 

Anyways, I'll probably get the entire Affinity suite of apps, and I think my web designer will likely get it too.  I just upgraded to Catalina and had to ditch Adobe CS6, and he is about to.  While they aren't as complete as the Adobe alternatives, I only ever used a small subset of the features. 




 

dcr

Well-known member
As far as mail merge with page layout programs, I get personalizing letters and addressing envelopes, but that is certainly within the realm of Word and using address labels with a mail merge.
I don't think Word or Pages could handle bleeds and probably not crop marks either.  Or Pantone color support.

And some of the stuff I would probably tear my hair out trying to do in Word or Pages.

Anyways, I'll probably get the entire Affinity suite of apps, and I think my web designer will likely get it too.
Fireworks is going to be the most difficult to replace.  PhotoLine comes kind of close, I think, but nothing can open a Fireworks file (in a way that it can be edited) and Fireworks can't export to anything usable by other programs either.  It can export to Photoshop, but I tried that today and, when opening in Photoshop, the colors were all wrong and not easily editable.  It can also export to Illustrator, but I tried that too but only vector art actually transfers.  And it can't seem to save to an earlier version of Fireworks either.

 

dcr

Well-known member
Isn't Fireworks last release CS6?
Yes, but I have Fireworks CS3.  And if anything happens to it, I cannot reactivate it.

Understood.  But way beyond what I would need.
I was just giving examples of why it wouldn't work for me.

You would think that, after twenty years, more page layout software than InDesign would be able to do mail and data merge.  A lot of people have requested it on the Affinity forums, so there is some hope that Affinity Publisher will have the feature sooner or later.  QuarkXPress could be a contender but I think they have a bit of an attitude problem that holds them back.

 
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