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Another IIci ROM hack
- Thread starter dougg3
- Start date
tt
Well-known member
This is just a really rough stab at the lower end of the board with 2 layers. You might need to jumper some connections with wires in the worst case scenario. The upper area gets hairy... I think the chip spacing needs adjustment, I move some of the smaller ones down. I cheated with the vias and swapping layers, so some places might show an overlap, but the idea is there. It has been years since I laid-out a PCB in Eagle, but it seemed way easier to move components and swap layers while routing.
The vertical traces on the left side of U1 should probably be blue....it's an iterative process...
The vertical traces on the left side of U1 should probably be blue....it's an iterative process...
Wow, that's amazing tt. I was wondering if changing orientations of the chips would help, but from your pictures, it seems like that isn't necessary. Thanks a bunch for taking a look at this, what you got done in less than an hour... I'm not sure I'd have figured that out in weeks of staring at this.
Trash80toHP_Mini
NIGHT STALKER
FWIW, on the many boards I've inspected a/o collected, the ICs for I/O/Glue are normally parallel to the expansion slot connector. Memory buses can run either direction, but the ICs are perpendicular to the board connector, with the buses parallel to it, for most high capacity designs I've seen.
Remember, these are only casual observations on my part. :beige:
p.s. your care package arrived today, DQ!. That was fast!!!!!!!!!! USPS must have sensed the color of the boards . . .
. . . and the three Buccaneers on Board! :rambo:
Remember, these are only casual observations on my part. :beige:
p.s. your care package arrived today, DQ!. That was fast!!!!!!!!!! USPS must have sensed the color of the boards . . .
. . . and the three Buccaneers on Board! :rambo:
Trash80toHP_Mini
NIGHT STALKER
Well . . .
I've got so many projects on the table today I just didn't know which one on which to procrastinate first:
So, I looked over the ROM SIMM connectors, rummaged through the prototyping parts drawers and came up with a couple of really nasty, interesting ways to go about this extender test rig . . . and then spotted drawer with the 64 position machine pin headers. One . . . two . . . saw'em both in two and now I've got four 16 pin socket/pin row sets. Three . . . and those four are now all seated firmly upon the soldertail pin rows on one of the three connectors . . .
. . . but it's the boring, repetitive, least interesting way to go about this kluge.
. . . we got your good news: looked around a little more and found my bag of single row square header pin strips . . . all set.
. . . we got your bad news: the dang wire wrap tool is MIA!!!!!!!
. . . we got your obligatory silly question: will wire wrap even work on the round machine pins? Maybe just well enough to solder them in place?
Now it's procrastination time. :
Edit: picture of . . . progress?
Wire wrap tool is still MIA.
I've got so many projects on the table today I just didn't know which one on which to procrastinate first:
So, I looked over the ROM SIMM connectors, rummaged through the prototyping parts drawers and came up with a couple of really nasty, interesting ways to go about this extender test rig . . . and then spotted drawer with the 64 position machine pin headers. One . . . two . . . saw'em both in two and now I've got four 16 pin socket/pin row sets. Three . . . and those four are now all seated firmly upon the soldertail pin rows on one of the three connectors . . .
. . . but it's the boring, repetitive, least interesting way to go about this kluge.
. . . we got your good news: looked around a little more and found my bag of single row square header pin strips . . . all set.
. . . we got your bad news: the dang wire wrap tool is MIA!!!!!!!
. . . we got your obligatory silly question: will wire wrap even work on the round machine pins? Maybe just well enough to solder them in place?
Now it's procrastination time. :
Edit: picture of . . . progress?
Wire wrap tool is still MIA.
tt
Well-known member
Thanks, I hope it gives you some ideas, there's stuff I think could be better, but it is sort of a conceptual layout to see if 2 layers is feasible. Hopefully the design rules are not violated with the routing between pads. I can look at the upper part more sometime later, I am a little tied-up at the moment. But my approach is to look at general groupings of paths in the rat's nest and then see if they can be out of the way of the other groups. I see the upper right as having a bunch of intersections that will probably need a ton of vias unless a change in the chip layout could mitigate that issue. I am feeling constrained by the software, so I need to learn how to use it better within its workflow.
Note for later: Do you have the board size maxed out? If not, I would make it the max size for the board-house price point and fill the leftover area with a bunch of plated holes at 0.1" spacing for soldering other stuff later.
There are a lot of quadras.
The 700/900 works and has a SIMM slot from the factory.
My centris 610 came with a SIMM slot from the factory, and the ROM SIMM worked with it. Which probably means the Q610, 650, and 800, which don't come with a SIMM slot from the factory but do have solder pads, probably work as well. If you installed a SIMM slot.
Doug's research on the AV macs shows the current SIMM is incompatible with those (also no slot from the factory, you'd have to install one).
I don't think anyone has checked out the 630.
That's the hardware side. The software side has been focused on the IIsi ROM, which works for the IIsi and earlier (IIci, IIcx, IIx, SE/30), but won't work for newer machines. If there's sufficient interest, working on the newer ROMs is always a possibility. The 8MB SIMM opened up a lot of possibilities with newer ROMs that weren't really practical with the 2MB SIMM.
The 700/900 works and has a SIMM slot from the factory.
My centris 610 came with a SIMM slot from the factory, and the ROM SIMM worked with it. Which probably means the Q610, 650, and 800, which don't come with a SIMM slot from the factory but do have solder pads, probably work as well. If you installed a SIMM slot.
Doug's research on the AV macs shows the current SIMM is incompatible with those (also no slot from the factory, you'd have to install one).
I don't think anyone has checked out the 630.
That's the hardware side. The software side has been focused on the IIsi ROM, which works for the IIsi and earlier (IIci, IIcx, IIx, SE/30), but won't work for newer machines. If there's sufficient interest, working on the newer ROMs is always a possibility. The 8MB SIMM opened up a lot of possibilities with newer ROMs that weren't really practical with the 2MB SIMM.
I know this is kind of off-topic to the latest development stuff, but I've been thinking and I just want to get this written down for future reference:
If I ever want to create a better, faster version of the SIMM programmer, this Atmel AVR32 chip seems like a good possibility:
AT32UC3C164C
66 MHz, USB support, works with 5V supply, has 81 I/O pins, 64 KB flash, 16 KB RAM, costs less than $10. That right there more than satisfies all of the requirements of the SIMM programmer. By eliminating the SPI GPIO extender and replacing it with a single processor with tons of pins, I'm pretty sure this thing could flash a SIMM *much* faster than is currently possible.
I recently ordered 50 of my current SIMM programmer PCBs, so I don't expect to make a new programmer anytime soon...but this is a possibility for the future! Or if anyone else gets brave and feels like designing something using this...
If I ever want to create a better, faster version of the SIMM programmer, this Atmel AVR32 chip seems like a good possibility:
AT32UC3C164C
66 MHz, USB support, works with 5V supply, has 81 I/O pins, 64 KB flash, 16 KB RAM, costs less than $10. That right there more than satisfies all of the requirements of the SIMM programmer. By eliminating the SPI GPIO extender and replacing it with a single processor with tons of pins, I'm pretty sure this thing could flash a SIMM *much* faster than is currently possible.
I recently ordered 50 of my current SIMM programmer PCBs, so I don't expect to make a new programmer anytime soon...but this is a possibility for the future! Or if anyone else gets brave and feels like designing something using this...
The final 8 MB SIMM PCBs have been ordered. 50 of them. I hope I didn't screw anything up!
They will be black, Jolly Roger centered on the back, no LEDs or anything. I left the hole in the Jolly Roger...I think it's fine. There will be vias going through it so it will be interesting to see how it turns out.
They will be black, Jolly Roger centered on the back, no LEDs or anything. I left the hole in the Jolly Roger...I think it's fine. There will be vias going through it so it will be interesting to see how it turns out.
onlyonemac
Well-known member
AMAZING! I got to about page 16 or so and then ran out of breath. Oh well, I think I saw enough to be able to give you a big congradulation for the most amazing project ever! I would have ordered one of these SIMMs if it wasn't for the fact that my Performa hasn't got a slot for one (or, as the case may be, the slot hasn't been fitted...)!
Anyway, what is the currect status of the project (in terms of SIMM size, programming options, etc.)?
Finally, I found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c52JQHVVqFM. I thought it might work well with your Mario startup chime! (I would agree that your version sounded better-this one's a bit out of tune .) Maybe you should try making a custom ROM that would do a similar thing with the Mac's floppy drive?
Anyway, what is the currect status of the project (in terms of SIMM size, programming options, etc.)?
Finally, I found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c52JQHVVqFM. I thought it might work well with your Mario startup chime! (I would agree that your version sounded better-this one's a bit out of tune
.) Maybe you should try making a custom ROM that would do a similar thing with the Mac's floppy drive?Thanks! Yeah, it's a pretty crazy thread. I always love reading the first few pages where I'm constantly talking about how I'm nowhere near having a custom chime or any of that...and now we're way beyond that!
The current status of the project is as follows:
1) I have plenty of 2 MB SIMMs available for purchase
2) I have plenty of 8 MB SIMMs available for purchase
3) I have plenty of SIMM programmers available for purchase
Right now the SIMM programming software can write an image to the 2 MB or 8 MB SIMM and it automatically splits the data up between the four chips. It can also read an image back from the SIMM. I also have requests for only programming the first part of the chip (so the 7.5 MB ROM disk is left alone and only the 512 KB at the beginning is reprogrammed) and to allow for programming individual chips at a time, so you can use the 2 MB SIMM as a chip burner--these aren't done yet but I plan on it at some point.
Also, I have received a report that the SIMM programmer software doesn't behave entirely great in older PowerPC OS X versions -- it loses communication with the programmer board pretty easily. I plan on looking into that as well at some point in the future, but I can say for now it works pretty well on Windows and Intel Macs according to what everyone has told me and my own experience.
Haha, very nice find on the floppy drive song! That's cool! I personally don't have any plans to make music with the floppy drive ;-)
The current status of the project is as follows:
1) I have plenty of 2 MB SIMMs available for purchase
2) I have plenty of 8 MB SIMMs available for purchase
3) I have plenty of SIMM programmers available for purchase
Right now the SIMM programming software can write an image to the 2 MB or 8 MB SIMM and it automatically splits the data up between the four chips. It can also read an image back from the SIMM. I also have requests for only programming the first part of the chip (so the 7.5 MB ROM disk is left alone and only the 512 KB at the beginning is reprogrammed) and to allow for programming individual chips at a time, so you can use the 2 MB SIMM as a chip burner--these aren't done yet but I plan on it at some point.Also, I have received a report that the SIMM programmer software doesn't behave entirely great in older PowerPC OS X versions -- it loses communication with the programmer board pretty easily. I plan on looking into that as well at some point in the future, but I can say for now it works pretty well on Windows and Intel Macs according to what everyone has told me and my own experience.
Haha, very nice find on the floppy drive song! That's cool! I personally don't have any plans to make music with the floppy drive ;-)
onlyonemac
Well-known member
What's this about a ROM disk?
It's somewhere in the thread as it goes on and on. Basically, bbraun developed a ROM disk driver and patched it into the IIsi ROM. The link to his site describes it in more detail. It's pretty amazing and it works great...
This post is amazingly approaching 1000 replies. Wow!
This post is amazingly approaching 1000 replies. Wow!
JDW
Well-known member
First off, congratulations to you Doug and bbraun for an amazing project!
I only happenstanced across this thread today, and as such I've only read the first few pages of the thread as well as this final page (page 40). I've also seen Doug's 8MB ROM SIMM page and bbraun's ROM Driver page. I now have some questions for you...
1) I have an SE/30 that I would absolutely love to test out with a hacked ROM that that can boot some flavor of System 6 or 7. Will this Custom 8MB SIMM + Driver work with any version of System 6 or System 7 that is already compatible in an SE/30 that has a IIsi ROM? (For example, with a IIsi ROM in my SE/30 now I can run 6.0.8, 7.01, 7.1, 7.5.x, 7.6.x, and even OS 8.1 — albeit with the simple ResEdit hack to System file). If so, I would assume the only limitation would be the SIZE of the System Folder we intend to burn into the ROM SIMM? The 8MB SIMM gives us a 1.5 MB cap on whatever System Folder we burn, correct?
2) Would adding non-Apple CP's and Extensions cause problems in booting?
3) I assume we can't buy a ready to use pre-programmed 8MB SIMM (which would be the quickest path to experiencing Mac Classic style joy of ROM booting), so it would appear that we need 4 things: (a) an 8MB ROM SIMM, ( B) the SIMM programmer, © some kind of software that allows us to control the programmer, and then (d) the driver software that bbraun created. Is this correct? If so, how much does it all cost (with shipping to Japan), what forms of payment are accepted, and how do we go about buying it?
4) Is there a single PDF available that speaks in layman's terms about how to do it all — from how to use the control software for the SIMM Programmer board to the installation of the required drivers? Or is programming one's own custom ROM SIMM still in the domain of uber geeks who know their way around heavy duty programming?
All said, if you can make the process simple and easily understandable, I don't see why these kits wouldn't sell like hotcakes. As for myself, so long as I don't have to jump through numerous hoops or spent countless hours to so it, I would love to purchase a kit and experiment with burning different System Folder configurations to this amazing re-programmable ROM!
Thanks.
I only happenstanced across this thread today, and as such I've only read the first few pages of the thread as well as this final page (page 40). I've also seen Doug's 8MB ROM SIMM page and bbraun's ROM Driver page. I now have some questions for you...
1) I have an SE/30 that I would absolutely love to test out with a hacked ROM that that can boot some flavor of System 6 or 7. Will this Custom 8MB SIMM + Driver work with any version of System 6 or System 7 that is already compatible in an SE/30 that has a IIsi ROM? (For example, with a IIsi ROM in my SE/30 now I can run 6.0.8, 7.01, 7.1, 7.5.x, 7.6.x, and even OS 8.1 — albeit with the simple ResEdit hack to System file). If so, I would assume the only limitation would be the SIZE of the System Folder we intend to burn into the ROM SIMM? The 8MB SIMM gives us a 1.5 MB cap on whatever System Folder we burn, correct?
2) Would adding non-Apple CP's and Extensions cause problems in booting?
3) I assume we can't buy a ready to use pre-programmed 8MB SIMM (which would be the quickest path to experiencing Mac Classic style joy of ROM booting), so it would appear that we need 4 things: (a) an 8MB ROM SIMM, ( B) the SIMM programmer, © some kind of software that allows us to control the programmer, and then (d) the driver software that bbraun created. Is this correct? If so, how much does it all cost (with shipping to Japan), what forms of payment are accepted, and how do we go about buying it?
4) Is there a single PDF available that speaks in layman's terms about how to do it all — from how to use the control software for the SIMM Programmer board to the installation of the required drivers? Or is programming one's own custom ROM SIMM still in the domain of uber geeks who know their way around heavy duty programming?
All said, if you can make the process simple and easily understandable, I don't see why these kits wouldn't sell like hotcakes. As for myself, so long as I don't have to jump through numerous hoops or spent countless hours to so it, I would love to purchase a kit and experiment with burning different System Folder configurations to this amazing re-programmable ROM!
Thanks.
Trash80toHP_Mini
NIGHT STALKER
I'll second the motion for a layman's level HowTo for the whole kit and kaboodle . . . I'm lost.
Might some well versed newcomer to the world of this type of process jump in to help the Dynamic Duo with this bit of the project by sharing that hard won experience?
Back in the day, file corruption must have been more of an issue than today.But you never know when remembering having done a bit of work that disappeared in any iterative process can be copied and pasted into the current revision, saving much time and effort re-creating that bit of deleted data in the current version.
Procrastination Report:
I found the M.I.A. wire wrap tool last week . . .
< . . . now where did I stash those connectors?????? :?: >
Might some well versed newcomer to the world of this type of process jump in to help the Dynamic Duo with this bit of the project by sharing that hard won experience?
The necessity for this process in things as simple as medium size word processing document is something I've found it very difficult to get across to others.
Back in the day, file corruption must have been more of an issue than today.But you never know when remembering having done a bit of work that disappeared in any iterative process can be copied and pasted into the current revision, saving much time and effort re-creating that bit of deleted data in the current version.
Procrastination Report:
I found the M.I.A. wire wrap tool last week . . .
< . . . now where did I stash those connectors?????? :?: >
JDW, I will attempt to answer your questions to the best of my ability, although let me just prefix the questions with an aside. I've kind of stopped posting ROM modification updates or documentation in this forum because it is inherently walking a fine line with respect to this forum's rules. Specifically, I am modifying the copyrighted ROM, which I can't distribute or link to from this forum. I started down the path of trying to distribute patches to the ROM to be able to post them here without actually distributing the ROM its self, but that ended up being excessively time consuming and troublesome for both myself and people trying to use it.
I now post most of the ROM modification updates to the mac68k.info forums. I hope it is ok to link to that here, I haven't linked to it publicly in the past for fear of violating forum rules or ethics. I only do it now in an effort to avoid potential future rule violations of ROM discussion. I won't be publicly linking to it again outside of this post.
1) This works with every combination of system and SE/30 that has been tried AFAIK. From a design perspective, I don't know of any reason this would not work with every Mac OS that can run on the SE/30, although there can always be bugs or unforeseen interactions. System 6.0.8, and various versions of System 7 have been reported working.
Also, the IIsi ROM is 512KB, so the 8MB ROM SIMM gives you a 7.5MB image.
2) I do not know of any problems with extensions/CP's. Simply the change from the SE/30 ROM to IIsi ROM may cause issues with some hardware drivers, although I don't know of anything specific for the SE/30. Putting a IIsi ROM on the IIx causes the Radius Rocket software to complain that the IIsi is unsupported, although it's being used in a IIx and system gestalt and Finder about box all know the machine is a IIx. So it really depends on what the software is doing and what they're looking at.
3) I'll leave this one for Doug
4) The documentation of ROM preparation, I feel, is again brushing up against the forum rules, and to just be on the safe side, I haven't done it here. I have created a wiki page elsewhere with some basic instructions. It would be great to have feedback from folks who have used it. Anyone with a forum account can edit it, and I encourage people to do so.
I now post most of the ROM modification updates to the mac68k.info forums. I hope it is ok to link to that here, I haven't linked to it publicly in the past for fear of violating forum rules or ethics. I only do it now in an effort to avoid potential future rule violations of ROM discussion. I won't be publicly linking to it again outside of this post.
1) This works with every combination of system and SE/30 that has been tried AFAIK. From a design perspective, I don't know of any reason this would not work with every Mac OS that can run on the SE/30, although there can always be bugs or unforeseen interactions. System 6.0.8, and various versions of System 7 have been reported working.
Also, the IIsi ROM is 512KB, so the 8MB ROM SIMM gives you a 7.5MB image.
2) I do not know of any problems with extensions/CP's. Simply the change from the SE/30 ROM to IIsi ROM may cause issues with some hardware drivers, although I don't know of anything specific for the SE/30. Putting a IIsi ROM on the IIx causes the Radius Rocket software to complain that the IIsi is unsupported, although it's being used in a IIx and system gestalt and Finder about box all know the machine is a IIx. So it really depends on what the software is doing and what they're looking at.
3) I'll leave this one for Doug
4) The documentation of ROM preparation, I feel, is again brushing up against the forum rules, and to just be on the safe side, I haven't done it here. I have created a wiki page elsewhere with some basic instructions. It would be great to have feedback from folks who have used it. Anyone with a forum account can edit it, and I encourage people to do so.
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