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Andy’s PowerBook Problem

AndyO

Well-known member
OK... for no reason other than @3lectr1cPPC posting about his Thinkpad that resurrected itself, I powered up the 540c I murdered in mysterious circumstances a couple of weeks ago, simply by attempting to switch out the very stiff keyboard with a much nicer one from the parts 520c. After that, it wouldn't chime or power up. Last week it chimed, and the screen came up, but remained blank. Today.....
IMG_2695.jpeg
Which is somewhat cool, though obviously, can't be trusted to function should I want it to. It does have really odd off-angle color which is visible on the left of the screen, where there is a definite red/brown tint. And that diagonal 'bubble' across the screen too. And as if that isn't bad enough, this rather odd washed-out edge all around the display, with the color fringing most visible in the bottom-right, but which does go all around.
IMG_2697.jpeg

Vinegar syndrome has been suggested as the cause, but I've never seen it before now. However, it does render the active matrix screen rather less than wonderful to use!

I'm not going to tempt fate by removing the keyboard again - at least not now - but underneath, the cover over the RAM board looks like it is somewhat corroded as if it had been exposed to water. All in all, it isn't a happy PowerBook, though it is nice to see it booted up again. And, aside from the broken display catch, the plastics are in reasonably good condition.
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
Good to see it working again! RAM would make sense for the turns on w/ blank screen symptoms you were experiencing, so if that comes back I'd try to clean the corrosion off and reseat it. As for the display, that is absolutely textbook vinegar syndrome. I've said it before, but keep it away from your other PowerBooks, as I've heard it spreads. You're fine to use it as is, but the effects you're seeing will only get worse until you replace/have someone replace the display polarizing layer. I haven't had to do it ever, but I've heard it's pretty tricky. If you smell up close to the LCD, you should be able to smell the vinegar-like smell that the condition is named after.

I've still got no idea why the ThinkPad works now, but it's been solid reliable ever since it started working. I've got it on next to me at the moment, it's a great laptop!
 

AndyO

Well-known member
Its been running for an hour or so and doesn't seem at all unhappy, though I'd be an idiot to think I could trust it to boot up again! That said, it appears I did actually switch the keyboard, so isn't at all bad to use. And as bad as the screen condition obviously is, it is pin-sharp in places - after the passive matrix screens I generally use, it's clearly capable at least of being a lot better.

I can't smell anything from the discoloration, but I have no reason to doubt the diagnosis, and in fact it clearly does have polarizer issues. I knew about this problem - though not that it was vinegar syndrome - when I bought it, but it was so cheap that I thought it was worth it anyway. I wanted to try out an active matrix color screen, and was thinking I would use this as my home PB and the 520c as the office one. Of course the 190/5300 influx would have rather stymied that plan, even if I hadn't killed off the 540c messing with its keyboard.

If only I liked the 500-series design, I'd be planning out repairs to the 540c even now!
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
You've got to be the only person in the world that actually likes the 190/5300. Sure, I've got one and i do use it, but it's probably my least favorite of all my old PowerBooks, and I'd assume most would agree. Maybe I'd like mine more if it had robust hinges, the 5300ce display again (still sad about that) and a rebuilt battery. Then at least the compact design would be a benefit, but right now it just isn't that great. I do want to pick up a 190cs at some point and upgrade it to the max, just because that one's 68k.
 

AndyO

Well-known member
I find it really funny that everyone else likes the 500-series and dislikes the 190/5300. I guess that is good for me, since otherwise I can't imagine a new, still sealed, 500-series would have been offered for just $200 as my 5300cs was!

But the 500 series is just plain wrong in terms of styling. All those bendy/curving lines and top-heavy looking screen. It looks like a badly made sandwich! Admittedly, the twin battery was a definite step forward in its day, but give me the simple lines of the 100-series and 190/5300 any day - they just look and feel much better!

Admittedly, yes, my 190 and 190cs both have hinge issues, though neither 5300 (seems) to.... yet. But a lot of the laptops from the same era had similar problems too. The 190/5300 deserves the reputation it got, undoubtedly. But two things seem relevant to me at this point: Firstly, that all systems of this kind of age needs to be treated with care, and these are no exception. Secondly, that while their performance was poor thanks to design choices Apple made, this is hardly a great relevance now. We can easily get better performance if we need it by selecting later systems which would outperform these models even if they hadn't been design-compromised.

Ultimately, for me, the form factor, including weight and balance, of the 190/5300 is just about as perfect as it gets for my use needs. The 500-series rather less so. I would accept that I am a difficult case in some respects though!
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
My main disagreement with you if the 500 series design, I think it looks awesome, but I can see how it can be divisive. The main 5300 issue is that no one has made a 3D printing template for their hinges like the 100 and 500 series have. As soon as someone with the skills does that, the main issue will be fixed. It doesn't help though that the metal hinges on my 5300 are quite stiff though, I need to pick up some silicone grease to use to loosen them up! Speed isn't too bad on mine with speed doubler and max RAM, but it's still a bit embarrassing that my 540 and 540c can decode MP3s better than it, the 5300 lags out half the time while the 540 can do it perfectly every time.
 

AndyO

Well-known member
I don't disagree with your thoughts at all - design and appreciation are wholly personal things. For me, I look at the odd little fold-out legs at the back and think 'what were they thinking?!'. The 100-series supports were just perfect, the 500's look like the afterthought of a junior in the design lab 2 days before the production run began.

The balance of the 500-series is different though. That swopping shape may look nice, and it may sit beautifully on a desk (and actually, it does!), but on my lap, the thin front where it curves down, and the thick front of the display when it is open, tends to make it feel unstable on my lap when I'm using it. In fact it bounces as I type on it as a result, so the 'feel' isn't helpful at all.

The 100/190/5300 brick-shape is far more stable in this situation, so I find it far more workable. It is personal though, which is why I said that I am probably a difficult user, because the way a system feels in use is crucial to me in ways it likely isn't to many others.

Performance wise, it is certainly true that the 5300 is disappointing compared to other models of the era, and it is impossible to justify Apple's design choices in any context other than bad management, serious cost-cutting and poor financial results perhaps, but I have the luxury of not having to consider this at all, since if I were to be decoding MP3s (for example), I'd just pick a system which can do that task well. What I need is a system that sits exactly where I put it, provides a stable surface to work on for hours at a time, and has a consistency of behavior, particularly of the keyboard.

My 145B is very close to that, and with @Siliconinsider's RAM expansion, it can now run what I need it to, which is great (or will be once it is recapped), but I've been trying to find 'the perfect' alternative ever since, and in my use case, for various reasons, nothing hit the right spot until I got the 190. It just works. The 5300 by comparison is way faster at what I do, so is an improvement. If I was working at a desk so weight not being a problem, my PDQ would be the go-to of choice, but it's too heavy for use on the lap for more than an hour or so.

I am a very fussy user, but perhaps not fussy about the same things as other are!
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
I agree that the 5300/190 would be a great typer (and I'd love to make it one - just need too many parts!), but mine has been cursed with an extremely stiff keyboard that is awful to type on, so I can't use it much for that. The compact design would certainly be appealing though, just gotta find a non-leaked battery I can rebuild and a better keyboard. My end goal for each of these laptops is that I can pick up any one of them and take it anywhere without worry of it breaking. Mainly, that means a working battery and robust hinges, along with the system being nicely upgraded. I just love using older laptops, in fact, I'm typing this from a 2005 Dell Inspiron 6000. Now that I've gotten pretty good at soldering, my next job is going to be to learn how to rebuild batteries, which should really help me out on this goal. Maybe that's why ThinkPads appeal to me. They're no-nonsense robust and (generally) reliable, with great keyboards.
 

AndyO

Well-known member
I've experienced really variable keyboards on my 100-series 'Books, the 180 and parts-165 being rather stiff in particular, but the 145B was excellent. I bought a replacement for the 180 from a recycler which turned out to be almost as good as the 145B's keyboard. I have been fortunate in that the keyboards on the 190, 190cs, and both 5300cs machines have been excellent, but the 500s have been pretty poor, except for the one in the parts-520c which I had planned to swap into the 540c when instead I somehow murdered the entire machine! Thankfully, not necessarily permanently.

Initially I started with DOS lunchboxes - which I really like, but at 20+ pounds or so are hopelessly impractical. But at least they date from the age when keyboards were generally fairly good or even excellent. The best I've used wasn't even DOS, but a TRS-80 Model 4P. There has never been a better keyboard than this has, but I need something a bit more capable from time to time, so next was a Compaq Portable III, and then a true DOS marvel, NEC Powermate Portable. This is a stunning computer to work on, but the need to sometimes map out complex diagrams brought me back to the Mac platform.

At this point I thought my solution would be a portable machine, but realized this wouldn't be the best way to do it because the feel of the system is different on my lap versus on a desk, so the machines might be better to be different too - then all I would need is the means to move the files between home and work every day. To that end, since the desk in my office has limited space, I was using a 17-inch G4 iMac at home, and G4 Mac mini, or RPi 4B/Sheepshaver at work (both running Mac OS 9) with brown key mechanical TKL keyboard. This worked pretty well, except the G4 iMac was a bit of a big lump on my coffee table when not in use. Great system though, particularly with an SSD instead of the original HD.

Then came the PowerBooks, but only after a Classic II I'd bought and had used as my home machine, with an AEKII and ADB trackball, failed because it needed a recap. I'd used it long enough to realize that instead of a 9-inch screen on the coffee table, a 9-inch screen on my lap would be plenty enough.

Hence the arrival of the 145B, which .... yes, well, precipitated everything else as I have tried to find what works best for me. The 100-series remain my favorites in terms of sheer design and their place in history, the PDQ I have at home is the most awe-inspiring in terms of performance and sheer joy to use, and 'Nimitz', my 17-inch G4 PowerBook, is routinely used at work for a number of practical tasks, but the 190/5300 family are the best I have come across in overall suitability for my needs. Perfect they are not, but excellent even so.

At least until my recapped Classic II AB and LB come back... then all bets are off!
 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Lets see? PB190 vs. BlackBird counterpart . . . no contest:

$620 less expensive than 520 from the year before
same spec 4-bit Passive Matrix LCD
CPU at 33MHz vs 25MHz
4MB higher memory ceiling
500MB HDD, IDE at same speed as Apple (sloooow) SCSI that preceded it, if not faster. vs. stock 160MB or 240MB upgraded in 520. :rolleyes:
__ lower cost/MB. SCSI adapted IDE was already in the high end Blackbird line, but nobody knew or would admit to it if they did.

Stock 190 - ready to go, full support for full PCMCIA spec and WiFi card out of the box vs. purchase of adapter in PDS bay.
PDS slot in 190 remains available for 10bT or VidCard expansion or other at buyer's discretion.
.3 pounds lighter than 520

Plastics, just how many BlackBirds have crumbled vs. 190, in the day they were far more robust.

No, it was no 550c, then again neither was it intended to be. It was the very low end of the line and so, never active matrixed.

No contest, besides, Apple went way to far geeking the 'birds out so they'd look nothing like the 100 Series. There's no accounting for taste. PB190 at the low end was in step with the far more attractive PowerBook 100. Never liked the looks of the 030 100's and the Blackbirds look soooo dated by comparison.

edit: BB AAUI was only 16bit, LEM was clueless about that and IDE.
 

AndyO

Well-known member
Ah. Time flies, but three things have beset my plans for vintage Mac use with new complications.

The first is that my Classic II boards returned from Thomas at Amiga of Rochester, and even though illness delayed me doing anything with them, I finally reassembled the system, and it booted, and has been running pretty much perfectly for a couple of weeks. I know all the reasons the Classic II is a disappointing end to the compact Mac line, but my AEK II keyboard is superb to type on, so the system is back in use (and actually very cute.
 
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AndyO

Well-known member
This has meant a bit of a rejig at the office too, where I have now put my Performa 630CD back to work, with the TKL brown-switch mechanical keyboard... and it's great. Except that the 630 still has the same issue with lack of things such as a working edition of Stuffit Expander and Fetch, so I can't get it connected online or to my iMac for new software and file swapping. Working on it though, but it's annoying since I did add an ethernet card last year, which works fine.

Secondly, that by accident and largely because having been ill and forgetting things need to be handled carefully, I decimated my work-based PowerBooks by breaking the hinges on my PDQ, so the screen no longer stands up. It does open and the PDQ works as usual, but I have to prop the screen up to use it. I also broke the power connector off the logic board on one of my 5300s by plugging it in without the proper abundance of care, and, while not exactly my fault, the back panel on the screen of my 190 broke open, when one of the hinges gave way and dislocated.

Admittedly, the 5300 does still power up, but with very careful fiddling required, and it obviously needs a take-apart to resolve the connector. One for the future when I feel up to it. The 190 hinge is probably beyond me, but I might find parts somewhere - as I hope to do for the PDQ.

The third thing happened today: I took delivery of a new (to me) ancient PowerBook. Actually, not ancient, but in fact a 1400c/166, which has the usual cracking on the panel above the hinges, but is otherwise in great running condition. What can I say, but it was cheap!

And the odd thing is that despite the fact I've never been fond of my 1400cs/117, it does have a good keyboard, and the 166 is even better. The screen is also pin sharp (of course). Surprisingly, it must have a good PRAM battery, because it still had the time and date from its last use a week or so back.

So lots of software to install this week, and then see how well the 1400/166 runs. And perhaps it is time that instead of dismissing the 1400 PBs as not-for-me, I ought to research how to fix their hinges.

I'll post a photo of it once I have cleaned it up a bit!
 
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3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
How much did the 1400 run you? I've been looking for literally any processor or RAM upgrade to my 117MHz 16MB 1400 for ages now but nothing seems to come up. Just having a 133MHz board with cache would be a big improvement. Sorry to hear about your PDQ and 5300/190 systems. Can't say I'm surprised you've had hinge issues on either...
 

AndyO

Well-known member
The 1400 was $100, which I think was pretty decent for a working machine, with 64Mb RAM, and a fully functional CD drive - even with the usual cracking problem. Once I've settled on where it will be used, I'll keep it open until I can work out how to fix the hinges.

Breaking the PDQ's hinges is really frustrating because I knew to be careful opening and closing it - and then just wasn't. There doesn't appear to be any parts to fix them either, so it will have to wait until I can find a parts machine.

The 190 is beyond much hope, I think, but the 5300 I should be able to repair once I get back to being healthy enough to wield some screwdrivers and a soldering iron. I do really like that PowerBook so it's well worth doing the repair - and I have a 5300, which I bought from one of the members here I can practice on, because it has the same issue but is actually worse!

I need to see if I can get a RAM upgrade for my Classic II - it has 4Mb but could do with 8 or 10 - and a RAM upgrade for my barn find 5300 would be good too, since it has only 16Mb. Enough, but a bit more would help!

There's always something!!
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
Sorry to hear about your heath problems! I wish you the best in recovery.

As for the 190 - Probably a simple standoff fix will get it going strong again. If you had a clean break, you can glue it back easily with Plastruct Plastic Weld or similar. Don't use regular super-glue, it won't hold long-term. Then again, the plastic in general won't nowadays either.

I feel for you with the PDQ. Mine has the same floppy hinge issue which sucks because it makes me never use it, even though it otherwise works great. I broke mine the first night I had it. Granted, it was already quite loose, but for me, opening it to 180 degrees did it in. It wasn't going to last long either way, but it still stunk.

Good price on the 1400. I've seen similar, just not at the right time.
 

AndyO

Well-known member
I didn't realize the PDQ hinges were so fragile - that the metal is so soft it snaps open. On the other hand, they were probably already far enough gone that even if I'd been careful, they wouldn't have lasted long. I do still have a good one, with hinges that feel reasonably firm, and a Wallstreet, which seems not to have the same kind of problem, so I'm fortunate enough I suppose. Just annoying that I did this through being careless.

I'll have a search around for 190 hinge fixes, but its hard to imagine anything holding long term, and because the 190 is the greyscale one, I used it a lot, so probably hastened its demise.

I decided that I'd get this second 1400 because since my health issue, typing is harder, and I've become even more fussy about keyboards. Hand/eye and left/right coordination is proving a challenge, and for some reason the 1400/117 just fits how I need to type, so another seemed a good idea, and the price for this one was right.

Thanks for your wishes - much appreciated. I am improving, and it's been less than 3 months, but I'm a bit impatient!
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
Someone needs to design a 3D template like what exists for the 100 and 500 series. As soon as someone does that, we’re good.
 
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