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A rescued relic (Macintosh Classic)

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Something like this should have no problem with a modern browser like Chrome with 50-60 tabs open, especially once it had a new disk and was brought up to 4 gigs of ram.

Buying good machines from the tail end of "modern" (things that'll realistically do just as well as some new machines for most tasks, especially if you can swing an upgrade to a solid state disk in the next few years) can be pretty inexpensive. Here is a machine that already has a fast processor and a discrete graphics processor. Each of those will run Windows NT 6.x (Vista/7/8) or linux/bsd quite well.

Incidentally, Dell Latitudes are generally some of the most physically reliable laptops you can buy. (They're up there with ThinkPads and HPQ's NC-Series and Elite notebooks.) A Latitude E6400 built in late 2008 or early 2009 and bought today in early 2013 will probably last until 2016 or so, at least.

 

bd1308

Well-known member
Yeah The Dell D610-630 and the 810-830 are SUPERB machines. I got a few of them from a company that traded up. They really are excellent machines, and I used to have one at work and loved it. Honestly, as long as you take care of it (keep the dust out of the heatsink), a Compaq 8510p is also excellent and the screen has a super resolution. I also had one of those at work. What I use as my daily machine now is a not really expensive hp elitebook 8560p with a i7 in it. Honestly, as long as youtube isnt in your "normal daily" category, I would have been fine with something like a G3/G4 something. As a web developer though, I need something with a little more juice.

 

Dog Cow

Well-known member
There's a time and a place for a decade old computer, or a poorly built computer on an abandoned architecture. Almost never is "my main computer" an appropriate time and place for it.
Ok. This iBook G4 (still posting on it right now!) is not my main computer. That's a 2008 Mac mini. But this iBook G4 is my only working laptop. It even has 256 MB more RAM than the Mac mini!
Finding something that'll run current software, which will still receive security patches, and probably be faster than even the fastest iBook/PowerBook G4s in maxed configuration with lots of money dumped into restoration and newer/faster parts, isn't very expensive at all.
OS X 10.5.8 is current enough for me. My Mac mini still runs 10.5.8. This laptop meets my needs, even though it is 8 years old. I have told people who were curious about it (wow your laptop is really thick!), and I said that I wouldn't recommend for them to buy an 8 years old laptop, however for me, I can because I know exactly what I need and I can maintain it too.

 

BlastoiseBlue

Well-known member
Wow... I might very well look into the Latitude series again, I mean, I'm really REALLY torn between getting one of those or an '08 MacBook or a ThinkPad. Honestly though, I've had bad experiences with D610 Latitudes in the past, I've owned two and both had soldering problems. One one the charger port came unsoldered from the mainboard and on the other it was the power button. :s

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
I said that I wouldn't recommend for them to buy an 8 years old laptop, however for me, I can because I know exactly what I need and I can maintain it too.
That's a key factor that most people, even a lot of people here on this forum, don't have. iBooks aren't maintenance-free now that the vast majority of them ever built are eight or more years old -- and truth be told, most of them were built poorly anyway, suffering from a variety of board issues in various generations. iBook maintenance skills are something I don't presume everybody who looks at this forum has, which is why I tend to recommend slightly newer wintel laptops that are designed to be hauled back and forth across the globe by salespeople. They do very well in the hands of all people, because they're built to withstand almost anything.

Also, for somebody who already has an iBook and it works, sure, keep it and keep using it -- but for somebody who doesn't already have an iBook and doesn't have iBook repair experience? Stay away, because the iBook was meant to be a short-lived consumer computer.

It even has 256 MB more RAM than the Mac mini!
That's just a cute fluke, and a 2008 Mac Mini can still be upgraded to hold 3 gigs of ram. (Which I'm surprised you haven't done, but that's just me and I tend to want as much memory as I can get in every computer I have.) I once had a Quadra 840av with 48 megabytes of ram, and a 233MHz iMac with 32MB of ram. The iMac was still faster even though the Quadra had more ram. Likewise, I bet a whole slew of factors lead up to your mini being faster (at everything) even though it has less ram.

I've had bad experiences with D610 Latitudes in the past, I've owned two and both had soldering problems.
That's unfortunate. Everything I've heard about the D-series Latitudes is that this is a fluke, but I'll admit to having used relatively few 600s and 610s over the years. The 620s and the 630s that have integrated graphics are completely rock solid. (The 630s with discrete graphics have the nVidia graphics with the bad soldering -- not bad machines, but they'll potentially need to be repaired in their lifetimes.)

The E-series is also solid, from everything I've heard.

This all presumes the barest modicum of respect for the machine, of course. Any laptop is going to have its power connector fall off the board if you exert enough pressure on the power connector, and any laptop is going to develop issues if you put it on a carpet and never clean dust and fibers out of its ventilation ducting, and any laptop is going to develop a bad disk if you drop it on the floor enough times.

I'm really REALLY torn between getting one of those or an '08 MacBook or a ThinkPad.
Without considering software at all, my recommendation is almost always a Latitude or a ThinkPad -- they're more flexible systems in terms of expansion and options, they're often available for less than a Mac notebook, especially if you're looking at used/refurbished/off-lease machines such as from geeks.com or dfsdirectsales, and there's often a way to get a better LCD panel, not to mention nice little things like the epic ThinkPad keyboards or the ThinkLight, which I still prefer over a backlit keyboard any day of the week.

But if Mac OS X is a top priority for you, then buy a MacBook, but be aware that you're comparing a budget-conscious consumer laptop (with relatively well-documented issues with its casing) to the top tier of corporate fleet laptops, often with no known defects or weaknesses, just depending on the model and vendor you go with.

Another option if you're just looking for something to run modern apps is to get a desktop -- if you're not taking a bunch of in-person classes or roaming around the world with your computer, a desktop is almost always going to be cheaper, faster, more durable, longer-lasting, and easier to repair if something does go wrong. Even I'm guilty of not giving the desktop quite enough credit, in this modern world of going to a cafe and using somebody else's horrible Internet connection, or taking your laptop to the sofa.

 

BlastoiseBlue

Well-known member
That's unfortunate. Everything I've heard about the D-series Latitudes is that this is a fluke, but I'll admit to having used relatively few 600s and 610s over the years. The 620s and the 630s that have integrated graphics are completely rock solid. (The 630s with discrete graphics have the nVidia graphics with the bad soldering -- not bad machines, but they'll potentially need to be repaired in their lifetimes.)
The E-series is also solid, from everything I've heard.

This all presumes the barest modicum of respect for the machine, of course. Any laptop is going to have its power connector fall off the board if you exert enough pressure on the power connector, and any laptop is going to develop issues if you put it on a carpet and never clean dust and fibers out of its ventilation ducting, and any laptop is going to develop a bad disk if you drop it on the floor enough times.
Yeah, I usually would keep the D610s on my bedside table, and I treated them fairly well. I would usually carry them around in my backpack at the very back behind all my books. If memory serves I actually got both laptops with the issues present already. With the charger issue I could usually just stick a book or a Gameboy or something under the tip of the power cable and it would charge, but it stopped working after a few months. As for the one with the power button issue, you would have to apply so much pressure to it to get it to turn on, and as such I rarely ever turned it off. By the time I gave up on it the power button (The inner part, the physical button fell off ages beforehand) had become so scarred and marked up from where I kept stabbing it with a pen to get it to turn on that I was surprised it hasn't cracked in half. (I would have to use both hands to apply enough pressure.)

I'd consider another D610 if I could find one in decently cared for condition, I really do like the feel of the laptop (just big enough, just heavy enough, not to little, not too much) but I'm looking for something with at leas a core duo and a decent graphics card.

Without considering software at all, my recommendation is almost always a Latitude or a ThinkPad -- they're more flexible systems in terms of expansion and options, they're often available for less than a Mac notebook, especially if you're looking at used/refurbished/off-lease machines such as from geeks.com or dfsdirectsales, and there's often a way to get a better LCD panel, not to mention nice little things like the epic ThinkPad keyboards or the ThinkLight, which I still prefer over a backlit keyboard any day of the week.
But if Mac OS X is a top priority for you, then buy a MacBook, but be aware that you're comparing a budget-conscious consumer laptop (with relatively well-documented issues with its casing) to the top tier of corporate fleet laptops, often with no known defects or weaknesses, just depending on the model and vendor you go with.

Another option if you're just looking for something to run modern apps is to get a desktop -- if you're not taking a bunch of in-person classes or roaming around the world with your computer, a desktop is almost always going to be cheaper, faster, more durable, longer-lasting, and easier to repair if something does go wrong. Even I'm guilty of not giving the desktop quite enough credit, in this modern world of going to a cafe and using somebody else's horrible Internet connection, or taking your laptop to the sofa.
Yeah, personally I'm leaning toward ThinkPad. My budget is about $250. As for Mac OS, the funny thing is it's not that at all, honestly looking over the specs of comparably priced laptops, I really can't justify buying a MacBook to myself anymore, but there's still something there, some strong, questionable desire. I guess the design might be part of it, especially the black ones, or maybe it's just my inner hipster crying for attention and wanting to be different, but there's something there. Still in all likelihood, I'm not getting a MacBook unless I find a decent one for under $250.

As for getting a desktop, I've considered doing that but at the time I have to have a laptop because I don't have home internet and I have to be able to lug whatever I'm using to the library.

Just curious, what laptop would you suggest for these needs? I'm looking for something under $250 with at least a dual core processor, upgradeable to 4GB of RAM, and I'd prefer a non-integrated video card since some games I like to play don't work on those, like Worms Armageddon and Minecraft.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
The Dell D630, E6400, or Lenovo T61 or T400 would do all of that just fine. In all of these cases, I recommend integrated graphics, just because on the D630 and T61, the discrete graphics has the potential to be unreliable, and on the T400, the discrete graphics is very weird and you will be permanently limited to Windows Vista or 7, in order to take full advantage of the hardware.

Worms Armageddon is a very old game and will require approximately no graphics horsepower at all, and Minecraft is a Java monstrosity that will almost certainly benefit more from having a reasonably nice 2GHz Core2Duo CPU than a particularly good graphics card. Plus, the drivers for the Intel GMA X3100 and X4500m graphics have updated in the past year or so, improving OpenGL performance on Windows a lot anyway.

If you still consider discrete graphics to be mandatory, the Dell E6400 is probably the way to go, and if Minecraft is really your only graphics-intensive application, this should be all the better, because the E6400 was available with OpenGL-focused Quadro graphics.

The EliteBook 6930p is of the same generation as the E6400 and the T400, as well. http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=6930P-C2D226-MAR-R&cat=NBB

You can also go a generation or so back, this machine probably has the 945 chipset and it does say it has a discrete graphics card, but I can't imagine you'll like the graphics it has (GMA x3100 or 4500 would be better, on a machine with 965 or 4-series chipsets) but it'll take 4 gigs of ram (and use about "3.something" gigs of that) and will run all of the programs you want at a decent clip. http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=6910P-C2D18-MAR-B&cat=NBB

One quick note on the E6400/Elite6930/T400, which are all based around the Core2 Penryn generation of processors. I only just stopped using mine (a ThinkPad T400) this past summer, and only for reasons totally unrelated to the performance of the computer. That machine still does everything I need/want on my home computer, and probably would for a while longer, but it started having an odd sound issue. (Sources online point to it having been in the software, one of my roommates is using it now, so I'll have to retrieve it and see if a reinstallation of Windows helps it at all, which will be nice because he uses it for wow, audio conferencing, and listening to podcasts in iTunes.) The machine has the discrete graphics option, but we run it with the GMA, because I think it also needs a new heat pad, or to be cleaned out of dust.

I don't know how long it'll be before desktop application software leaves computers from 2008-2010 (ish) behind, but right now, anything made in the past six to seven years does really fine, and with a solid state disk (which I have added to my T400), many tasks are indistinguishable between something of the Penryn generation from 2008/2009 and the Sandy Bridge generation from this year, even though Penryn to Sandy Bridge was in many cases an actual doubling of CPU performance, both integer and floating point.

I also have a ThinkPad T42p, a fairly high end Pentium M computer that shipped at about the same time the D610 did -- it does competently at a lot of the things my T400 does, but with only a gig and a half of ram and a quite old 128mb discrete graphics chip, it does fewer of them at once, and with a spinning disk (which would be exceedingly expensive to replace with a solid state, because it is IDE) it takes longer to launch applications and boot up. WoW runs, although this is nearing the older edge of playable -- GMA x4500 is significantly faster than the ATi FireGL T2 (Unsurprising, the T2 is about equivalent to a Radeon 9700/9800.) The main reason to go for something that old would be you're sure you're not going to be doing all that much at once (limiting the number of tabs you've got open) and favoring software that's slightly less compute-intense (The Zune media playback software, is fairly compute/graphics intense, and at its core, does the same stuff that bog-standard Windows Media Player, or Winamp does.) -- Also, the 15-inch 1600x1200 IPS display is really gorgeous, although a 14-incher would be far more portable. (Sidenote: That display is also available on the T60, and you can swap T61 motherboards into the T60 that has that display, but you'd end up spending a fair chunk of money to do that, since they're well-liked and you'd essentially have to buy the better part of two computers.)

"one more thing" to consider is that most of the machines (well, all of them) mentioned in this post have docking connectors, and at least the Dell and the Lenovo systems had docks available with PCI Express connectors in them. I don't have the information handy, but both of these vendors supported a few desktop level discrete graphics cards in the docking station, which may be something to look into if you just want a fast CPU today, and in a year or so want to upgrade the GPU so you can play a few more games. These would have to be games you can play offline, however, because the docks are not very mobile, they take up a huge amount of desk space and you would need a desktop monitor to display the output from a graphics card in the dock.

Hopefully some of this was even vaguely helpful.

 

BlastoiseBlue

Well-known member
Having taken all of this into account, I started looking on my local Craigslist at some lower level laptops and these two came up.

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/sys/3463962181.html

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/sys/3512697608.html

Now, I pick the Thinkpad over the Dell because it's only $5 (and a bit of a longer trip) more for a whole other gigabyte of RAM, Windows 7, 40GB more hard drive space and a fingerprint reader. (Seriously, if that isn't the coolest...)

On the other hand, the Dell has a slightly faster processor (1.60 GHz vs 1.83 GHz) and actually has a phone number in the ad. (I despise having to wait on reply emails, they never come. :c)

Now, I've got a few questions. First and foremost, what model of Thinkpad is that? I'm pretty sure I have it pegged as an R61, but that seems a bit too recent to be selling for $75, plus I read the R61 has a webcam and I'm not entirely sure I see one on there. Second, in the event that the owner of the Thinkpad doesn't contact me by wednesday (My cutoff date) does the D620 take the same kind of RAM as the D610?

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Interesting machines.

It's worth noting that the ThinkPad is one generation newer than the Latitude, and you're right, it's probably a T61 or R61/R61i. The T61 and the R61 are nigh-on identical, to the point where most models used the exact same motherboards, but there are a few other R-series variants, including the R-series model that does not have a docking connector. (It has a type-code that begins with a 7, I used to have an R61i of the 8932 type, if I remember correctly.)

So I'd go with the ThinkPad.

Also, webcams are usually a configurable option, My R61i didn't have it, but if I'd bought one online I could have added one in. Also, the processors on ThinkPads (T and R series for sure) are socketed, so you could install a T9300 (2.5GHz from the Merom generation) if you really wanted to.

Unfortunately, the D610 and the D620 do not use the same type of ram, 620/630 will take DDR2 memory, and the 610 will take DDR1.

I would be suspicious of both machines, but if they work and have the stuff you need to use them, that's a really great deal.

 

bd1308

Well-known member
The E Series is da bomb! It's my work laptop now, and it's awesome (except for running some uber-locked down ultra-secure non-admin image of Win7). If you enjoy warm a warm pepsi, with all of the scanning processes going in the background, your cold pepsi from the machine turns warm in about 15 minutes.

 

jruschme

Well-known member
Unfortunately, the D610 and the D620 do not use the same type of ram, 620/630 will take DDR2 memory, and the 610 will take DDR1.
Actually, the D610 and D620 both take DDR2. The only question is whether the memory from the 610 will be too slow for the 620.

That said, I have a D630 from $WORK that I love... nice machine to travel with.

 

MattB

Well-known member
+1 for the E-series. I have a pair of E6410s (one from work, one for personal use) with the i5-560m (2.5Ghz). Both have been rock solid reliable, with the only issues being caused by software. My personal machine has the nVidia NVS3100m discrete graphics card, and while it won't be able to run the latest games with all graphics options on, it does a decent job with almost everything I throw at it. One other thing I like about the E6410 is that unlike the HP 8440p the E6410 still has a 16:10 aspect ratio screen rather than the squashed 16:9 that is now so popular.

 

BlastoiseBlue

Well-known member
Alright guys, this is it, the final showdown.

I called a guy yesterday about a computer and I'm going Sunday to pick one up. These are my options, the guy is bringing both for me to look at.

Sony Vaio FE570, 1.60GHz, 160GB, 1GB

Lenovo Thinkpad T60, 1.83GHz, 80GB, 4GB, NO BATTERY

(He also has a T500 and a T61p I think. No battery in either but I guess I could keep my iBook for portability until I could buy a new one?)

$100 takes it, which one do you guys think I should choose?

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Get one of the ThinkPads -- I bought a replacement ThinkPad battery for my own T400 for like $30 on eBay, and it has been doing great.

I would personally lean toward something 14-inch, but a T500 will be a very competent machine, even if it is bigger than I'd buy. (And who knows what sizes the T60/61p are.

As mentioned above, I'd stay away from the 61p just because the BGA holding the GPU in place is eventually going to fail.

 

BlastoiseBlue

Well-known member
Yeah, I guess I could just keep the iBook for when I need to walk around with my laptop until i can get the battery.

My grandpa has the exact same model Vaio as the one I was looking at from this guy, and I'm not sure if I like it or not. The design is okay, but the lower chassis has some pretty bad flex and it feels generally cheap in that area, and in addition I don't really like the latch mechanism considering you have to push it into place yourself and on top of that it's not a very tight close.

Maybe since I'm trying to get rid of some stuff I could just swap something for a Thinkpad battery?

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
ThinkPad batteries really aren't that expensive -- I'd be totally unsurprised to find out you can get one for less than $30 on eBay. I think my 9-cell battery for the T400 was like $22 or so.

 

IIfx

Well-known member
Go with the ThinkPad. I was never impressed with a Vaio, they seem to have a lot of flex to them, even in the screen part. All of those ThinkPads listed have tough cases. (I know the T6x has a magnesium frame, not sure if the T500 switched to Carbon Fiber)

The T500 is ideal over the 60/61p. You get a last-gen Core 2 machine with DDR3 RAM.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
I've recently found with Vaios that the overall durability depends a lot on when you buy it, and partly on how you treat it. In every generation they are less durable than ThinkPads, but in some generations, they hold their own against other consumer laptops more than usual. Some of the newest ones seem okay, and supposedly the flexion in the display if you open it from one point is intentional -- but some of the older fat vaios with plastic everywhere are worrisome, like they're going to become the PowerBook 520 of the mid-2000s. Plus, Sony has built a lot of very ugly computers over the years. (Some very pretty, and some of their more creative form factors are cool to look at and think up use cases for, but sometimes, it's just ugly.)

(Sidenote: I own a Sandy Bridge based Vaio VPC-SC, 13-inch. It's classified as an impulse buy for sure, but it does what I need, which is to be quite small and run the apps/games I want quickly.)

(Sidenote 2: Although I might be replacing it faster than I replaced my T400, because I'm finding that a life without TrackPoint is not very fun.)

Useful information: If you have a ThinkPad, grab this tool: http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/detail.page?LegacyDocID=TVSU-UPDATE

It grabs all of the driver updates available for your machine for you, in one swoop. It's one of the best things about ThinkPads.

 
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