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8100 not displaying text in dialog or menus!

dramirez

Member
Hi guys!


I got an 8100/100 from eBay, seller didn't package adequately, brittle ABS plastics and we know the results:
8100.jpg

It didn't show any video in either the HDI-45 connector nor the HPV card, it did the startup bong tough.

Cleaned/redone thermal paste on the CPU and that fixed the video.

It had Illustrator 5 installed, I opened a couple of files, and the computer froze somehow.

After that, it doesn’t displays any text in menus or dialog boxes, my first tough was a corrupted Fonts folder inside the System 7 folder, started with extensions disabled, same result.

Then started from a System 9 CD, still no text... did the Comman+Option+PR, no changes, took the PRAM battery out for a while, still no text...

Did the ROM got damaged somehow? I believe the ROM is responsible for the text being missing, what do you guys think?
8100-1.jpg 8100-2.jpg 8100-3.jpg
8100-4.jpg 8100-5.jpg 8100-6.jpg
8100-7.jpg 8100-8.jpg
 

Crutch

Well-known member
That's like the weirdest thing I have ever seen on a Mac screen. I can't imagine a way the ROM could have been damaged that would prevent it from drawing text but where everything else works fine.

I mean, it's almost like someone played a prank on you and replaced Chicago-12 with some zero-width font.

Yet you report this happens from multiple startup disks?
 

Phipli

Well-known member
@slomacuser - are you able to offer a first gen PPC (Nubus) ROM to @dramirez? Do you still have any spare? Sorry for jumping in, looking at their issue your spares from the other thread came to mind :)
 

Phipli

Well-known member
That's like the weirdest thing I have ever seen on a Mac screen. I can't imagine a way the ROM could have been damaged that would prevent it from drawing text but where everything else works fine.

I mean, it's almost like someone played a prank on you and replaced Chicago-12 with some zero-width font.

Yet you report this happens from multiple startup disks?
Yes.... actually because bitrot would cause the ROM checksum to fail. But if it isn't ROM, the video system is just a dumb framebuffer (unless it isn't!?) so what could actually cause it between different System folders?!
 

Phipli

Well-known member
Are there any Nubus cards in the computer? I suggest removing any Nubus cards, then cleaning the contacts on the HPV card with IPA, and spraying deoxit in the pds connector. The manual says never run without something plugged into the PDS so make sure you put the HPV back before booting.

Can you take high quality photos of the HPV and the 8100 logic board - pay attention to where there are surface mount capacitors (electrolytic "tin cans").

My thoughts are cap damage or the ROM on a card that patches the toolbox being broken? Only stuff I can think of.
 

dramirez

Member
HPV is inserted, no NuBus cards, I saw no electrolytic leakage, will take hi-res pictures!

Thanks for your help guys! ;)
 

Crutch

Well-known member
the video system is just a dumb framebuffer (unless it isn't!?) so what could actually cause it between different System folders?!
I was thinking similarly. Is it possible the video card is lying about its screen resolution to the System, so text drawing/measuring routines are getting confused?

One thing that’s evident is that it’s not just drawing text that’s failing but _StringWidth is returning zero. Menus are zero width and window title bars have no “cleared” area in the racing stripes for text to appear.
 

cheesestraws

Well-known member
That's incredibly strange.

is that it’s not just drawing text that’s failing but _StringWidth is returning zero

Oh, well spotted. That's even odder. Yes, my next step would be try a different graphics card, in case it's something weird that the card is reporting to the OS in terms of measurements. But that's really weird.
 

David Cook

Well-known member
Early on, the System Font and System Font Size was fixed. The System Font is what you see in dialogs and menus. Over time, to support localization and fancier appearances (Platinum), this font became configurable (ex: Options section of the Appearance control panel and the Text control panel).

I know that the Application Font and Size is stored in PRAM. However, I don't know about the System Font or Script. The fact that you could boot off a CD and the font is still bad, suggests one of these values is coming from something other than the boot disk. Perhaps the localization or System Font setting is also in PRAM? Worth a zap.
 

David Cook

Well-known member
Early on, the System Font and System Font Size was fixed. The System Font is what you see in dialogs and menus. Over time, to support localization and fancier appearances (Platinum), this font became configurable (ex: Options section of the Appearance control panel and the Text control panel).

I know that the Application Font and Size is stored in PRAM. However, I don't know about the System Font or Script. The fact that you could boot off a CD and the font is still bad, suggests one of these values is coming from something other than the boot disk. Perhaps the localization or System Font setting is also in PRAM? Worth a zap.

"did the Comman+Option+PR, no changes, took the PRAM battery out for a while, still no text..."

Oops. Just saw that you tried zapping the Pram already. Hmm.
 

dramirez

Member
This got weirder... so the machine had 8.5 installed, the CD's I booted from were 8.1 and 9.0.4, no text with those. But I was playing with a new RaSCSI which had a volume with a 7.5 version, booted from that version and text was shown!!! Everything looked ok. I was happy, then upgraded to 7.6, no more text.


When booting from 8.5 I couldn't open the hard drive folder, it didn't show, but when I booted from 7.5, I checked the internal drive 8.5 system folder, Chicago rendered just fine, Charcoal font was missing though. But in 7.5 I could find Charcoal either.

I proceeded to take the motherboard out, cleaned the PDS & ROM slot with some DeoxIT D5 as recommended; took some pictures, reassembled everything, no video signal from the HDI-45, HPV or 8•24 NuBus Card (which I'm not sure works on a PowerPC).

It starts fine from the keyboard's power button, I hear a good bong sound, but notice no SCSI activity on the RaSCSI status LED, CDROM spins with a bootable CD inside, but doesn't do any seeking sounds... inserting a floppy disk doesn't do anything, it doesn't even spin.

I took the cache card out, all the SIMMs, nothing, nada... if I take the ROM out, I don't hear the bong anymore, so seems to me like the RAM & ROM checks are OK (because of the bong sound) but after that nothing happens.

I took the battery out for a while, did the reset PRAM, same behavior.

I could recap the HPV and motherboard, I can't see any leakage, and no corrosion, but some of those 47uf tin cans seem a little bulged on the top, but it may be just my imagination.

Any suggestions on what to do next guys? I really appreciate your help!

Now the pictures (if you noticed some liquid, it's the DeoxIT).
 

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Phipli

Well-known member
This got weirder... so the machine had 8.5 installed, the CD's I booted from were 8.1 and 9.0.4, no text with those. But I was playing with a new RaSCSI which had a volume with a 7.5 version, booted from that version and text was shown!!! Everything looked ok. I was happy, then upgraded to 7.6, no more text.


When booting from 8.5 I couldn't open the hard drive folder, it didn't show, but when I booted from 7.5, I checked the internal drive 8.5 system folder, Chicago rendered just fine, Charcoal font was missing though. But in 7.5 I could find Charcoal either.

I proceeded to take the motherboard out, cleaned the PDS & ROM slot with some DeoxIT D5 as recommended; took some pictures, reassembled everything, no video signal from the HDI-45, HPV or 8•24 NuBus Card (which I'm not sure works on a PowerPC).

It starts fine from the keyboard's power button, I hear a good bong sound, but notice no SCSI activity on the RaSCSI status LED, CDROM spins with a bootable CD inside, but doesn't do any seeking sounds... inserting a floppy disk doesn't do anything, it doesn't even spin.

I took the cache card out, all the SIMMs, nothing, nada... if I take the ROM out, I don't hear the bong anymore, so seems to me like the RAM & ROM checks are OK (because of the bong sound) but after that nothing happens.

I took the battery out for a while, did the reset PRAM, same behavior.

I could recap the HPV and motherboard, I can't see any leakage, and no corrosion, but some of those 47uf tin cans seem a little bulged on the top, but it may be just my imagination.

Any suggestions on what to do next guys? I really appreciate your help!

Now the pictures (if you noticed some liquid, it's the DeoxIT).
Charcoal wasn't used in System 7 so it isn't expected to be there. It should be there for 8 and up though.

Note the manual says don't run an 8100 without a card or a PDS terminator in the slot, but do you have any other PDS cards? Another HPV or AV card? Or a G3 upgrade? I'd switch in one of those to see if the fault goes away, if it does, it is probably the HPV, otherwise it might be elsewhere on the logic board.

Any sign of corrosion near any caps?
 

dramirez

Member
No corrosion at all, I recapped the motherboard and the HPV anyway.
Cleaned in the ultrasonic.
Tested with known good RAM from my Centris 650.
Battery reads 3.61 volts.
Tried with no cache card
Tried with several NuBus video cards

Still no video from the HPV, HDI-45 or the NuBus Cards!

I even tried with no HPV inserted, no video on the NuBus cards or the HDI-45.

I'll try to get an HPV card, but they are so expensive (even the ones from a 7100); they cost more that I pay for the 8100!
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
Ok, here's a few questions I have:

- Are you using an HDI-45 adapter to another monitor? Or an AudioVision 14 or something?
- Forgive my ignorance about this, but what is the HPV card? I have an 8100/100av, and I have the AV card in the PDS slot. Does this HPV card occupy the PDS?

Lastly, if you were all-out desperate, and wanted to try and rule out issues, I happen to have a spare 8100 logic board you could borrow if you have no other way to rule out that the failure is the cards you have.
 

dramirez

Member
Ok, here's a few questions I have:

- Are you using an HDI-45 adapter to another monitor? Or an AudioVision 14 or something?
- Forgive my ignorance about this, but what is the HPV card? I have an 8100/100av, and I have the AV card in the PDS slot. Does this HPV card occupy the PDS?

Lastly, if you were all-out desperate, and wanted to try and rule out issues, I happen to have a spare 8100 logic board you could borrow if you have no other way to rule out that the failure is the cards you have.
HDI-45 to another monitor via a VGA adapter (which used to work and displayed video many times before the failure)

There´s two versions of the HPV card as I understand, both PDS, sometimes called PowerMac High Performance Video:
-820-0522-A, (2MB VRAM frame buffer), came with the 7100, but fits the 8100.
-820-0509-A, (4MB VRAM frame buffer). came with the 8100, but fits the 7100. (this is the one my 8100 has).

Seems like I could source a cheap $20 820-0522-A, I'll try that next.

I thank you for you generous offer to lend me your spare 8100 motherboard in order to test my system, I'll PM you if it comes to that. :love:
 

dramirez

Member
Bummer! So finally a ROM and HPV card arrived (both untested), same as symptoms as before. :cry:

I'll PM LaPorta in order to test with another motherboard.
 
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