PowerBook 150 - screens all destroyed?!

[AlpineRaven]

Since this topic has mentioned - I am seeing more and more laptops of that era - Theres quite a few over in Japan as well. mine ones hasn't done that yet.

Cheers

AP

[digitalrampage]

2 hours ago, PB145B said:

Sure! Here are some pictures of before and after peeling the film off. I haven’t really done much more to it yet but I did put some acetone on there Was able to scrape a small portion of the adhesive off. Not sure when I’ll have time to mess with it some more but when I do I’ll definitely take pictures and post them.

 

What does it look like, its very hard to tell from your photos of what the issue is, is one of the plastic layers just shattered? 

[PB145B]

5 hours ago, digitalrampage said:

What does it look like, its very hard to tell from your photos of what the issue is, is one of the plastic layers just shattered? 

No it’s not shattered at all. To me it kinda looks like the adhesive has crystallized or something. It’s very strange and I have never seen anything quite like it before. It also had a very strong chemical smell when I pulled it off! So I would suggest to anyone else trying this to wear a mask before peeling the film off as there’s no telling what toxic things could be emitting from that old adhesive. But the actual glass underneath looked great when I scraped of a little patch of it off.

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

On 1/13/2018 at 6:18 PM, techgeek said:

My collection of powerbooks was kept in two different rooms with our dehumidifier running all the time, because of a health condition. Since I am a chemist, it never even crossed my mind to clean the screens with solvents, so this can't be the reason for the excessive damage. Since last time I checked, the PB520 and Duo 2300c screens got even worse. The bright spot on the Duo 230 screen is not a flash light reflection, it is a polarizer damage. Any ideas of what might been causing the polarizer deterioration?

From the LCD replacement hunt thread:

 

I'm wondering if plasticizer leaching within the close confines of a closed PowerBook over many years may be the culprit? If they're worried about the effects of leaching on drugs and foods for human consumption stored in containers within their expiration dates, multiple years of it concerns me. Dunno, but it seems to me it wouldn't take much to eat away at thin film plastics and adhesives? The variety of storage situations across environments and continents has made this my primary suspect.

 

As a chemist, hat do you make of that notion, techgeek?

[Alex]

7 hours ago, PB145B said:

No it’s not shattered at all. To me it kinda looks like the adhesive has crystallized or something. It’s very strange and I have never seen anything quite like it before. It also had a very strong chemical smell when I pulled it off! So I would suggest to anyone else trying this to wear a mask before peeling the film off as there’s no telling what toxic things could be emitting from that old adhesive. But the actual glass underneath looked great when I scraped of a little patch of it off.

I wonder if the smell was a chemical reaction that caused a gas to develop that was suddenly released. Some chemical reaction or deterioration must have developed. Have you tried to clean a small corner with isopropyl alcohol to see if it clears, do only a tiny spot to check.

[PB145B]

Isopropyl alcohol didn’t help at all, but acetone softened it up really good. As I mentioned above the panel underneath is glass, so acetone *shouldn’t* hurt it.

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

In the sign business, I've had to remove every adhesive know to man < /hyperbole > from almost any surface imaginable. Luckily, glass is probably the easiest one to clean! Here are a few examples of cleaning agents I've used.

 

YMMV!!!!!!!!!!

 

Vinegar is a great glass cleaner and is good for dissolving some types of adhesives used for stickers.

 

If the adhesive is oil based, turpentine is a great cleaning agent. If you opt for less expensive "mineral spirits" be careful about what's in it. It's a generic term for just about anything they wanna throw in there. Benzene (lighter fluid) has been used in it. Use only outdoors.

 

That said, Benzine/Lighter Fluid is an awesome cleaning agent. Definitely use it outdoors, preferably in a light breeze!

 

You could try good ole WD-40, dunno what's in that offhand, but it's mostly volitiles that flash off for Water Displacement. It's not all that much of a lubricant unless it's in light duty, low cycle, low pressure applications. Now WD-40's a brand name and they make plenty great lubricants for all sorts of uses. The volatiles in the classic multi-use product make it a great cleaning agent leaving very little residue.

 

As a next to last resort, I'd try Goof-Off. It's made specifically for removal of all kinds of cruddy glue glop. That stuff smells horrible!

 

Last resort would be oven cleaner, it's fabulous for removing vinyl adhesives from the baked enamel surfaces of vehicles without damage.

 

A single edge razor blade won't harm the glass, especially with any of the above or just plain water lubricating its surface. Use it on a low angle as in a "scraper" but use your hand carefully as the holder for better control. GREAT for corralling glop into a pile, onto itself alone and better with a thin piece of cardboard used as a backstop.

 

YMMV!!!!!!!!!!

[PB145B]

5 hours ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

In the sign business, I've had to remove every adhesive know to man < /hyperbole > from almost any surface imaginable. Luckily, glass is probably the easiest one to clean! Here are a few examples of cleaning agents I've used.

 

YMMV!!!!!!!!!!

 

Vinegar is a great glass cleaner and is good for dissolving some types of adhesives used for stickers.

 

If the adhesive is oil based, turpentine is a great cleaning agent. If you opt for less expensive "mineral spirits" be careful about what's in it. It's a generic term for just about anything they wanna throw in there. Benzene (lighter fluid) has been used in it. Use only outdoors.

 

That said, Benzine/Lighter Fluid is an awesome cleaning agent. Definitely use it outdoors, preferably in a light breeze!

 

You could try good ole WD-40, dunno what's in that offhand, but it's mostly volitiles that flash off for Water Displacement. It's not all that much of a lubricant unless it's in light duty, low cycle, low pressure applications. Now WD-40's a brand name and they make plenty great lubricants for all sorts of uses. The volatiles in the classic multi-use product make it a great cleaning agent leaving very little residue.

 

As a next to last resort, I'd try Goof-Off. It's made specifically for removal of all kinds of cruddy glue glop. That stuff smells horrible!

 

Last resort would be oven cleaner, it's fabulous for removing vinyl adhesives from the baked enamel surfaces of vehicles without damage.

 

A single edge razor blade won't harm the glass, especially with any of the above or just plain water lubricating its surface. Use it on a low angle as in a "scraper" but use your hand carefully as the holder for better control. GREAT for corralling glop into a pile, onto itself alone and better with a thin piece of cardboard used as a backstop.

 

YMMV!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the suggestions! I appreciate it!

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

You're welcome. Easy-Off oven cleaner started out for use as a painted lettering remover, then segued into vinyl letter adhesive removal. Don't breathe those fumes either. I'd use a cartridge respirator for working with any of the above for any extended period of time except the salad dressing. But I'd use rubber, latex or nitrile gloves for that one too. Who wants hands that smell like a salad for two days? 

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Trash80toHP_Mini

[techgeek]

On 1/25/2018 at 10:36 PM, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

From the LCD replacement hunt thread:

 

I'm wondering if plasticizer leaching within the close confines of a closed PowerBook over many years may be the culprit? If they're worried about the effects of leaching on drugs and foods for human consumption stored in containers within their expiration dates, multiple years of it concerns me. Dunno, but it seems to me it wouldn't take much to eat away at thin film plastics and adhesives? The variety of storage situations across environments and continents has made this my primary suspect.

 

As a chemist, hat do you make of that notion, techgeek?

I would rather attribute it to the adhesive's aging. I thought about leaching, humidity and what not, but these can't explain most of my observations. In theory, it should have been the humidity, since the polarizers are usually made of polyvinyl alcohol, which is known to absorb water (because it has -OH groups sticking out of the practically linear polymer chains). But in our home the humidity is reduced to a minimum, so this can't explain it. The leaching is caused by the addition of phthalates, but I see no reason for adding phthalates to PVA films  (they are usually added to PVC), since they are highly flexible on their own. Also the leaching doesn't require that long to occur (5-10 years will be more than enough). Also, the way the laptops are stored shouldn't matter much - I kept my PB 520c screen open on a shelf, because of the infamous hinge fragility. All others were stored in drawers. The other mystery is why none of my PC laptops are affected (yet)?!? My Lombard shows damage which appears to be under the glass, but this could be the second polarizer - It don't know. I am absolutely puzzled, because none of this points to a single reason. I could be a combination of many effects.

Edited January 28, 2018 by techgeek

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I figured the process that turns the infamous Spindler era ABS into crumbling piles of shards and dust to be leaching of the plasticisers from bad formulations. Happens to all plastics I know of, but not at such a high rate and such spectacular failures.

 

The 1400c I've kept open on the AppleDisplay is probably the only PB I own that has spent more than half its lifetime with the lid open. So the film's breathing in leaching plasticisers from within a closed lid over many, many years would be the one "relative" constant  I could come up with.

 

Aging's a good candidate, but that seems out of whack somehow. Gathering data here for statistical analysis would be interesting. Model number and date of production of failed film books and numbers on the unaffected 'Books in those collections would be a good thing to start.

[techknight]

Well I do know that CRTS made in the 60s and even into the 70s that had Safety glass used a PVA bonding agent that fails and causes "Cateracts" in the front and the only fix is to heat the tube and slowly remove the safety glass from the CRT and remove the old adhesive. 

 

Some of the early computer terminals are starting to exhibit this issue. 

[PB145B]

On 1/28/2018 at 10:13 AM, techknight said:

Well I do know that CRTS made in the 60s and even into the 70s that had Safety glass used a PVA bonding agent that fails and causes "Cateracts" in the front and the only fix is to heat the tube and slowly remove the safety glass from the CRT and remove the old adhesive. 

 

Some of the early computer terminals are starting to exhibit this issue. 

The original monitor that goes to the DEC Rainbow 100 suffers from this issue and it was made in 1982! You can see the cataracts in this image.

[techknight]

This has got to be the worst I have seen so far: 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Macintosh-Laptop-5300-series/332551182385?hash=item4d6d985831:g:i-MAAOSwLjxaf7TX

[PB145B]

14 minutes ago, techknight said:

This has got to be the worst I have seen so far: 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Macintosh-Laptop-5300-series/332551182385?hash=item4d6d985831:g:i-MAAOSwLjxaf7TX

 That polarizer is about ready to fall off!

[Byrd]

That looks like a real PITA to remove   Are you using any solvents/softening agents to peel it off?  Where will you source a replacement polarizing film from?

[K55]

The way we used to do it with old game boys (DMG's) was to use a razor blade to separate the digitizer/polarizer with a razor blade and peel it off, then clean the residue with 99% rubbing alcohol and align a new polarizer. Considering that the polarizer already looks like its done all you need to do is peel, clean, get a big sheet of polarizing film and some LOCA glue and have a polarizer that will last another 100 years.

[techknight]

Now, where do you source polerizers? 

 

I found one site, but they are different as far as degree angles, etc. Guess YMMV might apply there. 

[CC_333]

On 2/14/2018 at 3:14 PM, techknight said:

Now, where do you source polerizers? 

 

I found one site, but they are different as far as degree angles, etc. Guess YMMV might apply there. 

I guess if one could find a sheet big enough, they could turn it to the exact angle they need, and trim off the excess?

 

It's spectacularly wasteful, but it's something?

 

c

[MOS8_030]

Looks like someone left that sitting in the back window of their car in the summer....

[goncalo]

On 2/14/2018 at 11:14 PM, techknight said:

Now, where do you source polerizers? 

 

I found one site, but they are different as far as degree angles, etc. Guess YMMV might apply there. 

 

I'm so relieved having discovered my damaged LCDs can be fixed!

 

I've noticed several sellers of polarizer film mention degree angles - does anyone know the angle for the MB 1xxs?

 

Has anyone bought and applied this polarizer film?

 

SHARP LM 64P58 assembly removed from the backlight unit:

 

The polarizer film peeled off:

 

LCD with the adhesive still on:

 

 

Adhesive peeled off and flat blade:

 

Finished LCD unit:

 

[Franklinstein]

I'm glad people are trying to replace the polarizers on these displays. I may have to try it myself, though an internet/eBay search usually turns up a suitable replacement LCD for a reasonable sum.

 

I'll reiterate since it seems to be a common theme lately: old batteries may be outgassing and/or leaking electrolyte directly onto the screens when stored which will likely damage the display. I have purchased several PowerBooks lately (160, 5300c, 5300cs, 190, 550c, 520) with screens ruined like this and all of them have had serious battery leakage problems. All of them have had different types and manufacturers of screens across several years of production. Now every time I buy a PowerBook I completely disassemble it to remove the backup battery and then store the computer without its main battery. I think the 1x0 series used soldered button batteries underneath the display hinge on/near the brightness/contrast controls so I'm not sure if that battery will pose as much of a problem as the later models which stored the backup battery underneath the keyboard or palm rest somewhere. iBooks of course use supercapacitors in place of backup batteries so they shouldn't suffer from this sort of thing if batteries are indeed the culprit (at least, not if the main battery has been removed).

 

Also, many LCDs have electrolytic capacitors somewhere, especially on older units, and they're probably starting to leak which can only make this sort of thing worse.

 

TL;DR: REMOVE THE BATTERIES, INCLUDING BACKUP. You'll save yourself a lot of headache in the future.

[Alex]

This is one very interesting post. Man I wish there was a wiki. I have to read this entirely as I have some of these affected models. I better go and check them out.

@Franklinstein, excuse my ignorance but what is a polarizer?

[Alex]

Ok, I feel pretty dumb, polarizer, as in Polaroid as in the film that is being peeled away in all this talk. Sorry about my complete fumble. I should read first instead of littering this gem of a post.

[digitalrampage]

On 10/11/2018 at 8:40 PM, Franklinstein said:

I'm glad people are trying to replace the polarizers on these displays. I may have to try it myself, though an internet/eBay search usually turns up a suitable replacement LCD for a reasonable sum.

 

I'll reiterate since it seems to be a common theme lately: old batteries may be outgassing and/or leaking electrolyte directly onto the screens when stored which will likely damage the display. I have purchased several PowerBooks lately (160, 5300c, 5300cs, 190, 550c, 520) with screens ruined like this and all of them have had serious battery leakage problems. All of them have had different types and manufacturers of screens across several years of production. Now every time I buy a PowerBook I completely disassemble it to remove the backup battery and then store the computer without its main battery. I think the 1x0 series used soldered button batteries underneath the display hinge on/near the brightness/contrast controls so I'm not sure if that battery will pose as much of a problem as the later models which stored the backup battery underneath the keyboard or palm rest somewhere. iBooks of course use supercapacitors in place of backup batteries so they shouldn't suffer from this sort of thing if batteries are indeed the culprit (at least, not if the main battery has been removed).

 

Also, many LCDs have electrolytic capacitors somewhere, especially on older units, and they're probably starting to leak which can only make this sort of thing worse.

 

TL;DR: REMOVE THE BATTERIES, INCLUDING BACKUP. You'll save yourself a lot of headache in the future.

All of my batteries are removed and have been for 10+ years. This is not. Battery issue.