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Bubheart'sDaddy73

SSD in a 6500, anyone successfull?

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40 minutes ago, johnklos said:

What brand of SSD are you using, Bubheart'sDaddy73? I've used Samsung and Patriot SSDs connected to SATA-IDE adapters connected to a Quadra 630, to SCSI-IDE adapters, then to an Amiga 1200, to a Quadra 605, and to a VAXstation 4000/60. Never a problem.

 

You are using Drive Setup, correct? You mention Disk Utility, but that's an OS X thing, not a Mac OS 8 or 9 thing. Some programs aren't meant to see certain drives. Apple HD SC, for instance, only sees drives on SCSI busses. Perhaps you can try another disk program (third party), perhaps.

Oh, I meant to write Drive Setup not Disk Utility! My bad. I booted from the 8.5 install CD (and I also tried the OS 9.1 CD). Thing is, Drive Setup usually does show ATA as well as SCSI devices but nothing shows up when I attach an SSD via adapter. I've tried a Samsung Evo 840 120gb and a SanDisk SSD Plus 120[gb]. Maybe I'm doing something obviously wrong, but I feel I'm quickly exhausting all setup methods..

Edited by Bubheart'sDaddy73

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This sounds like exactly the same sort of fun that I was having with my 4400.  I took an actual Apple branded (Western Digital) 6GB IDE drive out of a parts Beige G3 I had laying around and while the machine would boot from it, Drive Setup refused to recognize it at all, no matter whether I was booting from the HD or from my 8.6/9.1 CDs...and if I was booting from the CD it didn't even mount the drive!  I was about ready to chuck the darn thing out a window (It's a 4400, who would miss it?) when I gave the IDE to CF adapter a go.  Apart from switching it from Cable Select to Master I didn't have to do anything special to get it up and running.

 

Should have worked TM describes some of these beige mid-90s Apples quite well :scrambled:

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I've only used HDT since I got my first (HUGE!) 1GB drive. I've avoided Drive Setup like the plague and never tried the hack version, though I have been curious about it. Until you've used a better bit of software than Drive Setup, I wouldn't give up. Lots of folks swear by Lido, so you've at least got two more avenues of approach, I'd give up on Drive Setup in a heartbeat, but not the project.

 

edit,: nor any of the hardware you've tried under the assumption it was incompatible because Drive Setup didn't work.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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1 minute ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

I've only used HDT since I got my first (BIG!) IGB drive. I've avoided Drive Setup like the plague and never tried the hack version, though I have been curious about it. Until you've used a better bit of software than Drive Setup, I wouldn't give up. Lots of folks swear by Lido, so you've at least got two more avenues of approach, I'd give up on Drive Setup in a heartbeat, but not the project.

Many thanks for that Trash80toHP_Mini - It never occured to me try different software! Is this the one: FWB Hard Disk ToolKit 4.5.2 ? - If so I presume I could burn to a bootable CD and give it a try? Or do you know of any bootable .img files floating around out there with this already included?, I don't know how to modify, then burn, an already existing bootable .img.

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On 9/14/2018 at 2:24 PM, EvilCapitalist said:

The 44 pin adapters are meant for laptops so they're only going to work in those or the TAM.  The connectors are physically smaller and the pins spaced closer together so they wouldn't work on a 40 pin cable.

 

I put a "poor man's SSD" (IDE to Compact Flash adapter) in my PM4400, which seemed to be just as finicky a machine as my 6500 and it worked.  The adapter I used looked exactly the same as the one I've linked to below, since I'm guessing they all came from the same factory in China.  Then I just put a quality CF card in it (SanDisk Extreme Pro I want to say) and Drive Setup picked it right up and I was off and running.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/231272261623

YES!!! Thank you x a million for your advice and links - I got my 6500 up and working with the CF card adapter today and it's running beautifully :) not a single problem! Heaven!

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Found a link to this waybacked article over at LEM:

 

 

Macintosh: Using Third Party IDE Hard Disks

 

What solution does Apple support for using a third-party IDE drive to replace the existing IDE drive Macintosh computers? Will Apple HD Formater that comes on the Disk Tools disk format any IDE drive?

You can use third-party IDE drives in Apple Products as long as the IDE drive supports the identify command, works at least at PIO mode 2 performance level, and has write caching turned on so that auto-reallocation of new spares is invoked.

Also, the highest PIO mode the Macintosh 630 family, the Macintosh and Performa 580, and the Macintosh Performa and Power Macintosh 5200, 5300, 6200, and 6300 series are capable of supporting is PIO Mode 3. The highest performance setting PIO mode the Macintosh Performa and Power Macintosh 5400 and 6400 series are capable of supporting is PIO Mode 4.

Most importantly, any IDE hard drive that is going to be used on these systems must support Logical Block Addressing (LBA). LBA is the method that drive manufacturers have adopted in order to go beyond the 520 MB DOS-BIOS limit.

Hard drives typically come pre-formatted so you do not need to worry about formatting the drive. The Macintosh system initializes the drive on startup (if it is not already done) so the system software can be installed.

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6 minutes ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

Found a link to this waybacked article over at LEM:

 

 

Macintosh: Using Third Party IDE Hard Disks

 

What solution does Apple support for using a third-party IDE drive to replace the existing IDE drive Macintosh computers? Will Apple HD Formater that comes on the Disk Tools disk format any IDE drive?

You can use third-party IDE drives in Apple Products as long as the IDE drive supports the identify command, works at least at PIO mode 2 performance level, and has write caching turned on so that auto-reallocation of new spares is invoked.

Also, the highest PIO mode the Macintosh 630 family, the Macintosh and Performa 580, and the Macintosh Performa and Power Macintosh 5200, 5300, 6200, and 6300 series are capable of supporting is PIO Mode 3. The highest performance setting PIO mode the Macintosh Performa and Power Macintosh 5400 and 6400 series are capable of supporting is PIO Mode 4.

Most importantly, any IDE hard drive that is going to be used on these systems must support Logical Block Addressing (LBA). LBA is the method that drive manufacturers have adopted in order to go beyond the 520 MB DOS-BIOS limit.

Hard drives typically come pre-formatted so you do not need to worry about formatting the drive. The Macintosh system initializes the drive on startup (if it is not already done) so the system software can be installed.

Thank you for the link! Given that CF cards seem to work can we assume that they support PIO Mode 4 and LBA then? I did a very quick google and Wikipedia lookup and, if my basic brain is right, CF cards are good.

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De nada. trying to get a handle on this myself, was just writing this before you replied:

 

Forgot to say thanks, just ordered up the new toys.

@Gorgonops Does the article just I backed up here make anything clearer to you, so you can translate it for us?

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1 hour ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

@Gorgonops Does the article just I backed up here make anything clearer to you, so you can translate it for us?

So, I can break down a few segments of it:
 

1 hour ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

You can use third-party IDE drives in Apple Products as long as the IDE drive supports the identify command,

The "Identify" command is an IDE command set feature that when triggered makes the drive spit out a data structure that contains (in pretty gruesome detail compressed into a massive bitfield) a summary of what the attached drive is (vendor, capacity, etc) what data transfer modes it supports, and what extended command sets has available. Very, very old IDE drives don't support it; in essence their controllers just emulate a Western Digital WD-1003 MFM controller (the one used in the original AT) with a hard drive permanently attached and it's up to the user to set the BIOS to the right capacity.

My editorial take: It would not surprise me at all if a SATA drive connected to one of those bridges produces an "Identify" bitfield that contains data the driver in the 6500's ROM doesn't understand and freaks it out.
 

1 hour ago, Bubheart'sDaddy73 said:

works at least at PIO mode 2 performance level

Here's a page about IDE PIO modes. "PIO" means "Programmed I/O", which roughly speaking describes the situation in which the CPU has to be actively involved in conveying each individual byte/word through the bus connector. (Verses DMA, in which the controller on the hard drive and a DMA controller on the computer's side automatically handle stuffing a discrete packet of data to/from the bus directly to RAM.) The number in PIO0-4 is an indicator of the bus cycle time. Mode 2 is the fastest that's supported by an 8mhz (that's the standard) AT bus; Mode 0 is IBM XT compatible and Mode 1 covers some other edge cases. Only *very* old IDE drives can't handle PIO mode 2; CF should support at a minimum Mode 2 because it was originally targeted at PCMCIA performance levels which correspond with the 8mhz AT bus.
 

1 hour ago, Bubheart'sDaddy73 said:

has write caching turned on so that auto-reallocation of new spares is invoked.

Again, this is something that would only be a problem on *very* old drives.
 

1 hour ago, Bubheart'sDaddy73 said:

The highest performance setting PIO mode the Macintosh Performa and Power Macintosh 5400 and 6400 series are capable of supporting is PIO Mode 4.

According to the developer note the 5/6(4/5)00 also support the Multiword DMA modes defined in the ATA-2 standard along with the PIO modes.

Again, and this is just me speculating, I wonder if the fact that those machines try to enable DMA is why the SATA bridges are reported to work with 6(2/3)00s; perhaps the bridges work fine falling back to slower PIO modes but something goes wrong trying to enable these very old pre-UDMA settings. (IE, perhaps the bridges don't actually support them properly but the data in the IDENTIFY device structure misleads the 6500 into thinking they do.)

 

1 hour ago, Bubheart'sDaddy73 said:

Most importantly, any IDE hard drive that is going to be used on these systems must support Logical Block Addressing (LBA). LBA is the method that drive manufacturers have adopted in order to go beyond the 520 MB DOS-BIOS limit

Extremely old hard drives (IE, the aforementioned ones that strictly emulated a WD1003) also only emulated the WD1003's method of accessing a location on the disk, IE, the location of a given chunk of data was described in three dimensional terms of Cylinder, Head, and Sector. (Often on these early drives the CHS values the drive accepted actually had no relation whatsover to the actual geometry of the hard drive attached to the controller, they just faked things up to the maximum capacity of the WD1003's registers to cram as much space as possible into the limited addressing possibilites.) LBA is when you simply describe the data space on the drive as one long string of blocks going from 0 to the end of the hard drive. SCSI used LBA from day one (although technically it *does* allow CHS terminology to be used for backwards compatibility to SASI) and most IDE drives made after 1990 or so support it as well. So, again, this is something that would only be a problem on a *very* old drive.

(And almost certainly not a problem with a SATA bridge; if anything I suspect the SATA bridge would be a problem if you plugged it into a machine so old it tried to use CHS. CompactFlash cards are LBA but *some* also support fallback to CHS; often that's limited to devices smaller than 512 megabytes.)

Anyway, in short, I don't think there's anything here that tells you why the SATA bridges *don't* work. If the bridges supported perfect fallback to ATA2-spec modes then they should work, but I don't know how perfectly they do that. My guess is they *don't* do it perfectly because they're mostly aimed at machines that support ATA4 and therefore there's *something* about them (again, my guess is on the DMA modes) that gives the 6500 fits.

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On hissing/ crackling AppleDesign speakers, one of the things that sometimes helps is simply to clean the volume control internals as best you can by taking off the knob and spraying right in there with electronics contact cleaner, through the little tube that comes with the aerosol can. Then let it evaporate for a short time (that stuff is highly volatile).

 

Could be capacitors or the power supply as well, of course, but corrosion and dust in the internals can afflict any such device with a certain unhappiness.

 

Works well enough to help old radios function again, too.

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21 hours ago, beachycove said:

On hissing/ crackling AppleDesign speakers, one of the things that sometimes helps is simply to clean the volume control internals as best you can by taking off the knob and spraying right in there with electronics contact cleaner, through the little tube that comes with the aerosol can. Then let it evaporate for a short time (that stuff is highly volatile).

 

Could be capacitors or the power supply as well, of course, but corrosion and dust in the internals can afflict any such device with a certain unhappiness.

 

Works well enough to help old radios function again, too.

Thanks for your recommendations on how to troubleshoot the hissing speakers, would be great if it was a semi-easy fix! I'll get around to fixng them at some point soon though and will refer back to your suggestions :lc:

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Thanks to this thread I've got what I need (hopefully) to get SD up and running in my 6400/6500 testbed. "P6360" is unsurprisingly the name of the HDD I used in that G3/400 machine back in the day. I'm getting the dreaded Unrecognizable: Initialize/Cancel dialog box all of a sudden. :/

 

My AppleDesign Speakers sound horrific, they need re-coning in the worst way. :`(

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15 minutes ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

Thanks to this thread I've got what I need (hopefully) to get SD up and running in my 6400/6500 testbed.

Glad I wasn't the only one to benefit from this thread! But now the Mac is up and running I'm curious if CF cards have the longevity of an SSD, not sure how they compare to an SD card though. That aside, it still seems incredible to have a near-silent running 6500. Thank you guys again for your kind help! ☺

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