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keenerb

New to Mac, got two SE/30s, hardware ID and some basic questions

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My only experience with Apple products was using them for Hypercard education programs back in elementary school.

 

Got two SE/30 machines for $20, neither works.  One (Mac A) powers on and does nothing but display some vertical bars on the screen, the other (Mac B ) has dead screen but seems to try to boot normally, more or less.  Mac A looks to be in basically pristine condition internally, Mac B is corroded beyond belief, I'm surprised it works at all.  Mac B also seems to have had a significant short at some point involving the CRT, there are some large black burned traces and two connectors are blackened and broken.

 

Each mac had nics or interface cards of some sort, but I am not sure of their model or part numbers.  Please see the attached screenshots, I'm hoping at least one will be Ethernet compatible so I can get one of these beauties on my network at home.  ONe seems to be a pass-through adapter of some sort, it has a second female bus port on the top of the card.

 

The two mac motherboards differ somewhat, Mac A has a socketed CPU, Mac B has a soldered CPU.  Are there any difference worth mentioning between the two, or just different revisions of hardware?

 

The cases are identical with the exception that Mac A had signatures embossed inside the rear of the case, Mac B does not.  A cursory google search seems to tell me that's of no real importance.

 

Also, I'm picking up a IIGS this weekend hopefully; are the IIGS mouse and keyboard compatible with the SE/30?  Both seem to use "adb" interface.  That would be nice.

 

Would a IIGS and SE/30 be disk-format compatible?  I think between the two hard drives I'll have at least one working Mac OS install; it would be nice to use that to create boot floppies for the IIGS rather than jumping through hoops trying to get a Windows machine to make them!

nic1.jpg

nic2.jpg

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35 minutes ago, keenerb said:

Also, I'm picking up a IIGS this weekend hopefully; are the IIGS mouse and keyboard compatible with the SE/30?  Both seem to use "adb" interface.  That would be nice.

 

Would a IIGS and SE/30 be disk-format compatible?  I think between the two hard drives I'll have at least one working Mac OS install; it would be nice to use that to create boot floppies for the IIGS rather than jumping through hoops trying to get a Windows machine to make them!

 

Yeah, the IIgs' ADB in the ROM 00/01 has some problems with extended keyboard features but they aren't likely to be an issue for you. I've had ADB touchpads and trackballs working under GS/OS 6 without problems.

 

Not sure what you're suggesting with the disk format inquiry. There's a (Macintosh) HFS driver for Apple IIgs' GS/OS that's known to be prone to data corruption issues (and might have been addressed by the unofficial GS/OS 6 builds?). That's not something you can boot an Apple II OS from. Apple II ProDOS 2.0+ formatted disks are limited to a maximum of 32 MB to begin with, so I'm not sure what that would accomplish, when HFS is substantially better suited to handle gigabytes of data anyway. Maybe you're curious if Macintosh System 6-7 can read and write to ProDOS floppies, but it's so much easier to do that with a modern computer, anyway.

 

You will have an easier time writing IIgs floppies from modern hobbyist software like ADTPro and the many disk images you can find from the internet.

Edited by nglevin

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Hi, and welcome to the 68kmla. You got yourself a nice deal there. Even if they're not working (for now), SE/30s tend to be expensive. It's the most powerful 030 compact mac after all... First and foremost, you'll have to recap both (or only one, that's up to you) logicboards, that's the Apple term for motherboard. Some guys here offer recap services if you don't feel up to the job yourself.

Please send us a picture of your corroded board. It may be salvageable.

And be sure to remove both PRAM batteries, especially if they're red and silver. Those can explode and completely ruin your board. That's what probably happened to poor Mac B...

 

13 minutes ago, keenerb said:

(Mac A) powers on and does nothing but display some vertical bars on the screen

What kind of bars? Are they kinda spaced out or close to one another? First things first, try and swap out the logic boards between the two units. Then if it still doesn't work, you should give the 'somewhat working' board a bath with hot water and soap. Capacitor goo may be causing a short somewhere. Soak it for 5 minutes or so, and scrub the board gently with a toothbrush without damaging those capacitors (they can fall off really easily if you're not careful). Then dry the board with a hair drier or submerge it in alcohol. You certainly don't want it to rust!

 

22 minutes ago, keenerb said:

Mac B also seems to have had a significant short at some point involving the CRT, there are some large black burned traces and two connectors are blackened and broken.

These things are known for having cold solder joints on the Analog board (that's the vertical one) near the yoke connector. If the connector or anything nearby is black, something bad happened. But again, it may be totally fine. It really depends on how bad the situation is. My SE/30 burned the paper insert/protection but it's fine. But it's a good idea to refresh the solder joints anyway. 

 

27 minutes ago, keenerb said:

Each mac had nics or interface cards of some sort, but I am not sure of their model or part numbers.  Please see the attached screenshots, I'm hoping at least one will be Ethernet compatible so I can get one of these beauties on my network at home.  ONe seems to be a pass-through adapter of some sort, it has a second female bus port on the top of the card.

I've never seen that first one before. Perhaps you could send us a pic of the other side of that card? The second one is a Farallon EtherMac 030. If the connector on the daughterboard looks like a VGA port but with only two rows, then it's AUI. Google "AUI" for more information. The drivers are readily available online. We'll get to that once we get one of them to post. 

 

35 minutes ago, keenerb said:

The two mac motherboards differ somewhat, Mac A has a socketed CPU, Mac B has a soldered CPU.  Are there any difference worth mentioning between the two, or just different revisions of hardware?

That's right. The one with a socketed CPU is an earlier revision. It just looks good and allows you to use the relatively rare socketed version of the Powercache accelerator. That's about it. Some video chips (UE8 etc) are socketed on those boards, making things easier when video fails. 

 

40 minutes ago, keenerb said:

The cases are identical with the exception that Mac A had signatures embossed inside the rear of the case, Mac B does not.  A cursory google search seems to tell me that's of no real importance.

Mac A should be from 1987 as they stopped doing that some time in 1988. Check the serial number tag at the back of the unit. It should begin with F7 or F8. 'F' means it was made in Fremont, CA and the first digit indicates the year the Mac was made. The SE/30 didn't come out until late 88/early 89. What you have here is an SE that got upgraded to an SE/30 at some point in its life. For more information about your particular macs, check this site: http://myoldmac.net/FAQ/Mac-Serialnumber-decoder-e.php#decoder

It should say you have an SE.

 

45 minutes ago, keenerb said:

Also, I'm picking up a IIGS this weekend hopefully; are the IIGS mouse and keyboard compatible with the SE/30?  Both seem to use "adb" interface.  That would be nice.

As nglevin already pointed out, yes those devices are 100% compatible.

 

46 minutes ago, keenerb said:

Would a IIGS and SE/30 be disk-format compatible?  I think between the two hard drives I'll have at least one working Mac OS install; it would be nice to use that to create boot floppies for the IIGS rather than jumping through hoops trying to get a Windows machine to make them!

Yes. That's totally possible. But you need to add the PC exchange extension to the SE/30 to be able to deal with DOS and ProDOS images. You should be able to mount your Mac partition on the IIgs with GS/OS. But your hard drives may be completely junk... To future proof your macs, I suggest investing in a SCSI2SD (but for now let's get them to boot properly).

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Here's the corroded area on the motherboard, before and after a good vinegar soak and cleaning.  Quite a few parts have come completely detached, and the video ROM has a leg completely eaten away.  Many of the traces have zero conductivity, so have been eaten completely away.

 

And there's the back of the NIC, if it's even a NIC.

nic3.jpg

MB1.jpg

MB2.jpg

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44 minutes ago, BadGoldEagle said:

What kind of bars? Are they kinda spaced out or close to one another? First things first, try and swap out the logic boards between the two units. Then if it still doesn't work, you should give the 'somewhat working' board a bath with hot water and soap. Capacitor goo may be causing a short somewhere. Soak it for 5 minutes or so, and scrub the board gently with a toothbrush without damaging those capacitors (they can fall off really easily if you're not careful). Then dry the board with a hair drier or submerge it in alcohol. You certainly don't want it to rust!

 

Mac A should be from 1987 as they stopped doing that some time in 1988. Check the serial number tag at the back of the unit. It should begin with F7 or F8. 'F' means it was made in Fremont, CA and the first digit indicates the year the Mac was made. The SE/30 didn't come out until late 88/early 89. What you have here is an SE that got upgraded to an SE/30 at some point in its life. For more information about your particular macs, check this site: http://myoldmac.net/FAQ/Mac-Serialnumber-decoder-e.php#decoder

It should say you have an SE.

Also, re: these two questions:  Would a Mac SE upgraded to an SE/30 have an SE/30 label on the back?  Because I'm about 99% sure that both these have SE/30 labels, but I'm at work so I"m not at all certain.

 

I've got the motherboard pulled out of the semi-working mac, but it shows some vertical lines somewhat like this:

 

Image result for mac se/30 vertical bars

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That kind of display is exactly what I had before replacing the capacitors on the SE/30 logic board. After replacing them, the screen looks normal (but in my case, a little wobbly and the refresh rate is low, so I have more work to do).

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Yup. Same thing here. Same exact bars before mine was recapped. I think it happens when the board draws too much power or can't get enough juice to power itself. Recap it asap. Or at least remove the caps (I use pliers personally to twist them 90° and they just fall off. With that method, I never pulled any pads, for now...) and give it a bath as suggested above. That way cap goo won't eat away all the copper.

And of course, you know the drill, you'll have to put some fresh ones after that. You can use tantalums, ceramics or the same SMD electrolytics if you want to keep things original. Tantalums are great because they don't leak but they too will fail in 20 odd years. 

 

And the SE/30 upgrade kit contained a new SE/30 board (obviously), a new bezel, a 1.44meg FDD (if required), a new chassis, some software AND a sticker to put on the back of the unit. You'll notice SE/30 upgraded SEs have a slightly different sticker. (Mine originally was an SE FDHD and it got a different sticker. That's where I got the info from.)

 

I had a look online and there is very little about a Sonic Systems card for the SE/30. I know a PDS one existed and found evidence of it in a magazine online

And apparently there are drivers for it here:  http://vintageapple.org/macdrivers/network.shtml

 

You have the daughterboard for that card, right?

Edited by BadGoldEagle
Added info about the unknown PDS card

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Thanks everyone.  It does look like Mac A was an SE upgraded to SE/30; the serial is from 1987, and the sticker, while very well placed, sticks out a bit farther than the sticker on my non-upgraded SE/30, so there must be another label underneath.

 

I have the daughtercard for that network card, yes.

 

I already ordered a recapping kit for the SE-30, so I'll definitely be tackling that soon, I'd LOVE to have a functional compact Macintosh in my collection, even though I was never a mac guy to begin with.

 

Is there any way to play Apple II games on a compact Mac?

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5 hours ago, keenerb said:

Is there any way to play Apple II games on a compact Mac?

 

Randy Ubillos of Premiere and Final Cut Pro fame did a little emulator called "][ in a Mac" back in the late 80s.

 

 

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I have a recap kit in the mail as of yesterday.  I looked over Mac A again close; I thought it was very clean but there was obvious blobs of leaked capacitor residue around the base of several caps.  I cleaned it thoroughly, letting it dry.  I'll probably see if that is enough to get it to boot without recapping for the short term for testing hard and floppy drives.

 

That "II in a Mac" looks neat as heck.  Was there a full-screen option, or did you just run Apple II programs in a 4" screen???

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21 hours ago, keenerb said:

 

Image result for mac se/30 vertical bars

 

 

I think this is what you get if there is no SIMM ROM and perhaps even no motherboard connected to the analogue board at all.

 

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Yes, that's what happens when there's no ROM, I think. This screen is also known to be caused by failed capacitors.

 

However, when no logic board is attached, the screen simply stays dark.

 

c

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When there's no logic board, it doesn't display anything... 

 

That emulator looks neat. I have a plethora of emulators on my modern mac (GSport, Virtual ][, Previous, LisaEm, Basilisk, Mini vMac and Sheepshaver). I think that covers pretty much anything Apple-related. Actually, it doesn't. I need to set up Sara sooner or later.

Anyway, I never thought about emulating old hardware on an old mac... I will definitely give ][ in a Mac a go!

And it should work wonders on an SE/30.

 

By the way, just cleaning the board might bring it back to life but it still won't work properly. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet since you're new to old macs, but it's supposed to chime when you flip the switch. With bad capacitors, sound is greatly reduced to the point you can't really hear it anymore. Plus with bad capacitors, the SCSI chip might not recognise any drives. 

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3 hours ago, keenerb said:

That "II in a Mac" looks neat as heck.  Was there a full-screen option, or did you just run Apple II programs in a 4" screen???

 

Nope, no full screen mode that I'm aware of. You'll always have that lovely digital clock to look at, skeuomorphism at its finest. :)

 

It will also require converting 5.25" .dsk files to the ProDOS format (.po). There's a freeware Mac tool that can do that for you, from an Adobe engineer from back in the day. Requires System 7 with PC Exchange according to the documentation, but PC Exchange might just be to read Apple II disks on a Mac:

https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/utility/ic.txt

https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/utility/ic.sit

 

You might also be able to get away with changing the file type code on an already ProDOS formatted file to 'DISK' with another freeware tool like Creator Changer 2.8.4, which also requires System 7. Or just use Apple's more powerful ResEdit. Fun fun fun with resource forks.

 

Allegedly the emulator also reads 800k ProDOS formatted disks straight off your Mac's floppy drive, if you happen to have a few. That would work quite well with the FloppyEmu, since it already reads .po and .dsk files...

Edited by nglevin
I just keep on thinking of other cool things.

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It's a shame it doesn't have a full screen mode. 

IIe by Vincent Tan is another great alternative. It does support colour and full screen (I think) but requires an additional graphics card to run on an SE/30 as it only works with macs that support 640x400 and colour quickdraw.

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8 hours ago, nglevin said:

 

Allegedly the emulator also reads 800k ProDOS formatted disks straight off your Mac's floppy drive, if you happen to have a few. 

Just about all the Apple II emulators for classic Mac OS will read the internal floppy. Bernie II the Rescue, the IIgs emulator, will do it too. II in a Mac is a neat emulator, but it runs slowly.

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10 hours ago, BadGoldEagle said:

When there's no logic board, it doesn't display anything... 

 

That emulator looks neat. I have a plethora of emulators on my modern mac (GSport, Virtual ][, Previous, LisaEm, Basilisk, Mini vMac and Sheepshaver). I think that covers pretty much anything Apple-related. Actually, it doesn't. I need to set up Sara sooner or later.

Anyway, I never thought about emulating old hardware on an old mac... I will definitely give ][ in a Mac a go!

And it should work wonders on an SE/30.

 

By the way, just cleaning the board might bring it back to life but it still won't work properly. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet since you're new to old macs, but it's supposed to chime when you flip the switch. With bad capacitors, sound is greatly reduced to the point you can't really hear it anymore. Plus with bad capacitors, the SCSI chip might not recognise any drives. 

I can BAAAARELY hear a sort of two-tone chime when I turn the system on after washing it.  It's quiet enough I had to ask my kids over to verify I wasn't imagining it.  At least that means it might still be alive!

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Recapped the mac, blew one of the new capacitors on first power-up.

 

image.png.a22ac274e1619cd21c2391f68a77a056.png

 

That's C9.    What do you think happened?  Could the capacitor have simple been bad?

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33 minutes ago, jhorvath911 said:

IMG_3089.JPG

:(

 

I just realized that myself, reseated all the capacitors with the correct polarity but of course I'm short one now.  Think a ceramic cap could fill in temporarily?  I still have those vertical bars without C9 in place.

 

On an electolytic cap the band indicates negative, doesn't it?  Why would they change that for SMD???

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As long as the capacitor is of the correct rating and installed correctly it shouldn't matter what type it is. 

 

As for why the markings are backwards from how we expect them I have no idea.

 

I assume you cleaned the board after removing the old caps, if not you'll need to do that. If you post some pictures of the full logic board someone might see something for you to be checking.

Edited by jhorvath911

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