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my first Lisa


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#21 Schafeman

Schafeman
  • 6502
  • LocationTwin Cities, MN

Posted 14 April 2017 - 12:34 PM

Those widget drives are even more rare than the Lisa's, there just is/never will be anything directly compatible (besides an aftermarket 'Sun Remarketing' 20mb drive, but I believe it only works under Macworks. You can also go the Xprofile route that someone mentioned, but its close to $400.  I'm lucky that my Lisa's have two working HD's, although who knows for how long.  Yours looks really nice and clean after some scrubbing!


Edited by Schafeman, 14 April 2017 - 12:35 PM.

Current Mac Collection: Quadra 700 / Quadra 950 / Mac Classic II / Mac SE30 / PowerMac 7300-200 / Powerbook 520

Current Non-Mac Collection: Apple IIgs (ROM3) Apple Lisa 2/10 / NeXT Cube and Two NeXTstation Colors


#22 falen5

falen5
  • 6502

Posted 14 April 2017 - 09:47 PM

Hi everyone.

 

Tried to power it up

 

card cage and Io card installed - nothing else. Back plate on, front plate switch on 

 

hit the power switch - light came on - nothing else. No display, hum from display of any kind of noise.

Hit power button again and it would not turn off (watched a video of a guy doing a smoke test on lisa - i copied what he did, just IO card.. BUT... his machine did turn off when he hit the power switch a second time.

 

pulled the plug. Tried again. Same, light on, wouldnt turn off on second hit

 

Tried a third time. Tripped the house fuse. No smoke, no bang, no noise of any kind. 

 

Took it apart and no damage of any kind, that I can see.

 

took PSU apart - looks the exact same as it did yesterday - nothing went bang, no smoke, no burning smell..... zip

 

Have PSU circuit board out on table. Will recap it. 

 

Discharging.........  will 240 volt bulb across the main big caps be OK ?........ im frightened to go near it - took it out by holding the edges!

 

been looking for a capacitor kit ..... no joy.

I count 7 rectangular foil caps and 8 radial caps (including the 2 big ones)

 

Replace them all?

 

if anyone knows anyone doing a kit for this.. please let me know

 

oh the joys of it!!

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Edited by falen5, 14 April 2017 - 09:47 PM.


#23 Johnnya101

Johnnya101
  • 68000
  • LocationLancaster, NH

Posted 14 April 2017 - 11:46 PM

Replace them all.

I think no display means dirty contacts.
http://lisafaq.sunder.net

"A used Lisa may not turn on because it is missing some component. In order to turn on, a Lisa requires:

power supply
card cage with motherboard
I/O board
In order to show something on the screen, a Lisa also requires:

CPU board
one or two memory boards
CRT, video card, and flyback transformer (the latter two are hidden in the chassis behind the CRT)"

For the crt discharge don't bother with a lightbulb. Just get some alliance gator clips and clip one to a long screwdriver with a thick handle. Wedge it under the cap and touch both metal prongs. You will hear a snap or squeak if there's anything. Do it a few times and you good to go.

Edited by Johnnya101, 14 April 2017 - 11:54 PM.

resized.gif       BRENT RAMBO APPROVES

Apple IIGS, Classic II, SE/30, Color Classic, Quadra 700, 2x Imagewriter II,  Macintosh Color Display, Power Mac 7100 and 7200, LC II, Macintosh Color Display,  and a box full of ADB keyboards... Soon to be owner of another Quadra 700 and PowerBook 165c


#24 falen5

falen5
  • 6502

Posted 15 April 2017 - 02:44 AM

cheers johnnya101

 

work to do



#25 CelGen

CelGen
  • 68000
  • LocationKamloops, Canada

Posted 15 April 2017 - 04:29 AM



Those poor uncovered EPROMS. :(

Under normal conditions I've seen uncovered EPROMs last years without problems (with thanks to being inside cases where light penetration is minimal).

 

HOWEVER there are countless warnings not to use flash photography in the proximity of an exposed EPROM. It doesn't kill the chip but the UV discharge is known to randomly flip bits and require a full wipe and burn to restore whatever was on the chip.



#26 falen5

falen5
  • 6502

Posted 15 April 2017 - 08:04 PM

Thanks for the heads up celgen

 

when i first took out the cage i saw the 3 labels on bottom of the unit, then saw the 3 eproms. Took a picture of the dust marks to know where each lable went - dont think there was a flash. All 3 were covered with tape ( learnt that from the scsi card on the hacked aplle ii)

 

Changed some of the PSU caps. getting +10.5 volt, -10.2 , and +5 volt ( just empy cage installed - wondering if there is not enough load for the psu to work correctly) - took the readings from the power lead for the hard drive

 

the caps i did remove all have good readings

removed the 2 large 470uf , 250 volt caps - reading 457 uf and 490 uf. I have 2 replacement caps but their value were even worse so I put the old ones back for now

 

cant do anything else until new caps arrive

 

what would be an acceptable tolerance for the 470uf caps..... +/- 10?


Edited by falen5, 15 April 2017 - 08:05 PM.


#27 aplmak

aplmak
  • 6502
  • LocationNorth Providence, RI

Posted 15 April 2017 - 10:25 PM

I've replaced most of the safety film caps on mine as well.. Those little square epoxy looking ones.. If they have slight cracks in them those are the ones that usually pop... 



#28 CelGen

CelGen
  • 68000
  • LocationKamloops, Canada

Posted 16 April 2017 - 05:07 AM

When I recapped my Lisa's PSU I did everything but the two primary caps. As mentioned above replace the AC line filter caps as well because they WILL fail and give you a good spook when they go. I use polyester substitutes which shouldn't need replacement again.



#29 falen5

falen5
  • 6502

Posted 16 April 2017 - 11:09 AM

They are all ordered - I have to wait for them. I have 4 apple ii's... had to replace all the foil caps  on their PSU. I have seen these thing go.... lots of smoke, noise and a hell of a mess to clean up. Both the .022  caps have small cracks on them.

 

anyone got any idea why  the lisa would have tripped out the house mains after a few minutes. I have never had that happen before and its worrying.

 

Im guessing there must be a direct short across the mains to do that within the PSU. Could the old caps be causing this or might there be some other component worth looking at while im waiting on parts


Edited by falen5, 16 April 2017 - 11:42 AM.


#30 BadGoldEagle

BadGoldEagle
  • 68000

Posted 16 April 2017 - 05:47 PM

There's an X/profile all assembled for you: http://www.ebay.com/...zIAAOxygPtStOSv

Bit costly though, but it might be an easier solution than building the IDE-file.


COOL STUFF: Working original & nearly complete 1984 Macintosh w/ Picasso kit, still looking for a G440 mouse :p, NIB Newton MessagePad from 1993, iMac G3 400MHz DV Graphite

IN THE WORKS: The outstanding SE/30 (50MHz Powercache, Pivot Display Color Graphics) but also non-working 512K Hyperdrive w/ Manuals & Disks, Mac Portable M5126, SE Dual 800k, Classic II, HD40SC, Apple Djinn... I have a lot of restorations going on!


#31 falen5

falen5
  • 6502

Posted 16 April 2017 - 07:02 PM

Thanks for that badgoldeagle.

 

Im going through the drives today. Just finished having a good look at the harddrive and was on ebay looking for ideas when I saw your link.

I dont know anything about widget emulator.. except it costs allot. Will have to do some reading

 

Floppy drive looks very good. Cleaned up the bay holder , floppy and fan. Look nice and found no damage

 

unlike the hard drive. It really has me wondering what happened. Someone in the past went to the bother of taking this hard drive out, taking it apart, tore chunks off, chips, ribbon cables ... then put it back with all the broken bits. Found a chip in the bottom of the cage that belongs to one of the hard drive boards ( I think)

 

Im thinking , maybey, some poor devil has 100's of hours of work on the drive, maybey an entire buisness and the drive died..... all his data with it. After paying 10 grand for the machine (or what ever it was) just lost the head. I know I have!!

 

anyone got any ideas on the PSU tripping out the house mains, randomly, without touching the machine. Happened twice now. It has me very worried

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#32 rsolberg

rsolberg
  • 6502
  • LocationVancouver Island, Canada

Posted 17 April 2017 - 12:21 AM

The mains tripping issue sounds like a failed capacitor on the primary side of the power supply. If the circuit breaker is a conventional type, it's probably tripping because of a short across the line. Most likely suspect is an across-the-line type filter capacitor. That should be an X2 type safety capacitor. If the circuit breaker is a GFCI/RCD type, then it may be a short/current leakage to the earthing conductor. I believe that would be a filter capacitor of Y2 safety type. Thanks to Techknight for some enlightenment on the subject of safety capacitors in power supplies recently.
68000: Mac SE Superdrive, 68040: Mac Colour Classic "Mystic" w/VGA mod

#33 falen5

falen5
  • 6502

Posted 17 April 2017 - 01:13 AM

rsolberg...........Thank you so much.

That is exactly the info I was looking for

 

Techknight !! .........sure what can ya say....... mans a legend.........knows his stuff. He basically fixed half my machines with his advice.

 The TAM.......from a few pictures he told me how to rebuild the psu and it worked, then the next problem then the next

 

I have great passion for this hobby but no education in it. I would be totally lost if were not from the help from the people on this site and others

 

Big thankyou to both of you and everyone else on this forum.



#34 techknight

techknight
  • 68LC040

Posted 17 April 2017 - 11:39 PM

I am not a legend. haha. 

 

I am just very experienced from the 20+ years of electronics repair and rebuilding I have done. Starting when I was 9 years old, I fixed my first CD boombox which had a crack in the PCB and needed solder jumper wired back together. 

 

It still didnt operate perfect, but it worked and was my first CD player. 

 

Moved on from that to electronics engineering, and now an inventor. Just filed for a patent process (not cheap) hopefully getting that soon. I have come up with all kinds of crazy ideas to do crazy things, starting from things as simple as re-engineering something, to something as complex as an algorithm or even an entire system. Never really thought of it as inventions until recently. Inventions can be something as small and simple as just the way you handle data in a complex system that already exists, or going to exist in a newer/better form... 

 

Technically, the SCSI2SD and Floppy Emu are inventions  8-)

 

But I digress...

 

I never owned, looked inside, or even had my hands on a lisa before. So, your on your own with this one ;)


Edited by techknight, 17 April 2017 - 11:52 PM.

Main PC: Intel core I7 920, MSI x58 platinum, Radeon4850
PB: tibook G4, ibook G4, ibook g3x2, Lombard, 160, 165, 180, 180c Duo 2300x2, Duo 270c x2, 520cPPC, 3400c, 1400c
Desktop: G3AIO, SE, SE/30, 512k, plus, LCIII, iMac G4, iMac intel, 6400/225

#35 falen5

falen5
  • 6502

Posted 18 April 2017 - 09:25 PM

"Ga way boy... would ya!!"........techknight you dont just know your stuff , you are good enough to share it.You and many others on here. Its very apreciated by me and im sure many others.

 

im pretty good in a few fields , but not this one. The annoying thing is..... I love this hobby , its an obsession , and it kills me not to have the knowledge to fully understand the ..... art form I guess........of how a good circuit works. To be able to apreciate its design etc etc. Its more of the quest in trying to restore the machine. You gave to get to know it, all the way down to the silicone .......it never got the training when i was young.

 

heres an example.

 

ordered the caps for the power supply. when it came to the old foil caps , I ordered modern day plastic ones. Logic being, in future when new owner looks at recapping he will see the modern caps, knowing it has already been recapped. Now im wondering should i have ordered the same type, which are avaiilable - the transluant brown ones . Is there a difference between the modern or the old ( well the ones that look old)

 

Darn obsession I tell ya!


Edited by falen5, 18 April 2017 - 09:28 PM.


#36 falen5

falen5
  • 6502

Posted 18 April 2017 - 10:31 PM

first look

 

sorry for the bad camera work on the board themselvs and the ever growing worse language..........passion boy!!

 

 

 

 

 

ps:-   EEVblog #696 ... you the man


Edited by falen5, 18 April 2017 - 10:50 PM.


#37 falen5

falen5
  • 6502

Posted 24 April 2017 - 09:49 PM

Recapped the power supply today. Getting good voltages

 

tried to power it up with IO board, CPU and ram

 

Got a display

 

but no life from the computer - no beep

 

3 of the roms had no cover sticker when i got it - im pretty sure I didnt get a flash when i took the pictures of the boards, but the chap that sold it to me took pictures of the boards as well, to show mw - dont know if he got a flash either

 

I have no idea which roms do what, or which ones need to operate to get a beep

 

heres a few pictures

 

 

 

 

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#38 BadGoldEagle

BadGoldEagle
  • 68000

Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:06 PM

I don't think you'd break anything by removing the ROMs and powering it on, right?

If it's okay (maybe wait until others say it's safe), then why don't you give it a go? If you get the same result, you'd be sure the ROMs are toast.


COOL STUFF: Working original & nearly complete 1984 Macintosh w/ Picasso kit, still looking for a G440 mouse :p, NIB Newton MessagePad from 1993, iMac G3 400MHz DV Graphite

IN THE WORKS: The outstanding SE/30 (50MHz Powercache, Pivot Display Color Graphics) but also non-working 512K Hyperdrive w/ Manuals & Disks, Mac Portable M5126, SE Dual 800k, Classic II, HD40SC, Apple Djinn... I have a lot of restorations going on!


#39 falen5

falen5
  • 6502

Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:14 PM

hi BGE

 

Im not sure which roms to go at 

 

Are the 2 chips under the 68000 the system roms?  

 

on the I/O card i can see lots of roms

 

the 3 that had the stickers fall off, would they be the main roms

 

computer is totally lifeless - no beep, no display... nothing

 

all my voltages are good and steady

 

reseated all socketed chips - they all look good - there is a socketed 74 chip on the motherboard - did that as well. That socket is kind of up on its side

will have a closer look - may have been replaced in the past

 

i doubt there are any problems within the machine - card cage connector, psu connector - after a good clean up last week everything looks new in there

 

just looking at the cardcage........ there's an interupt switch and a reset switch on the back - ill try hitting them



#40 falen5

falen5
  • 6502

Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:29 PM

tried again

 

reset and interupt made no difference

 

tried with the second ram card - nothing

 

just looking at other IO cards - the rom that is 4 pins short to fill the socket seems normal

 

Lisa is as dead as my hair style

 

Darn!


Edited by falen5, 24 April 2017 - 10:30 PM.





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