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Trash80, I did find the link (http://member.nifty.ne.jp/frogeye/connector.html#diagram) but it denies all bot access due to it's robots.txt, which means it was not archived like the many other links on that page... How unfortunate. I also found your old thinkclassic posts from 2014, and other relevant 68kmla posts from 2012. It looks like many people have needed this document, and it hasn't been seen since at least 2012.

That said, I am still piecing this stuff together with or without the document, and I'll gladly document everything I find out. While browsing those old posts, I found references to "ADB Power Supply and Power-Off Command" lines, which helps explain Pin 1 and maybe Pin 5. More updates to come as I continue to poke the living hell out of the Q630 PSU!

Edited by Floofies

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I didn't find the frogeye diagram on the NetBook, but now that I've spent the day playing here, I'll fire up a couple of the Illustrator workstations. I'm positive I've got it archived on disk  .  .  .  somewhere. ::)

 

 

edit: it's just Trash or jt (lower case)

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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Thanks for the effort there, jt, trying to map out this 6-Pin header is nothing but headaches. I found out that Pin 1, the one I said had +5VDC coming over it, actually has no voltage whatsoever; I just put my test lead one pin over by mistake. I decided to find out where the ADB got it's power just to make sure, and it's just the +5VDC from the main power connector.

 

However, that little mistake lead to me finding out what happens when you press the programmer's switch, as that +5VDC line actually went to the video-out board! When the button is pressed, it directly shorts a logical +4.9VDC to ground from a different circuit, tripping something in a little microcontroller, which then in turn temporarily shorts +5VDC (TRKL) to Pin 2, which levels out at +3.4VDC as the PSU powers up. If that +3.4VDC goes any higher or lower, the PSU shuts off. I really don't understand why, though. Shorting Pin 5 to +5VDC also shuts the PSU off, so I assumed that was the power off circuit, but maybe the shutoff is only a side effect? I don't have any way of knowing for sure, myself.

 

I would hate to have to deal with any kind of digital signal on the power circuit...

Edited by Floofies

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I beat up the image bushes on Google for a few minutes. Didn't find it, but found the preview of a pic posted here (lost in the great pixel robbery) about the 580<->630 harness adaptation. CC<->6360/6500 harness was similar. But ISTR that it documented the power plug.

 

4HQWNX.png

 

 

Mods, is there any way to just dump all the lost pixels into one directory we can rummage through in search of lost treasures?

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I found it using Google Image search and your preview!

 

http://graph.darren-criss.org/2016/01/25/1996-camaro-wiring-diagram-l-f9490e3cf502c93c.gif

 

post-4627-0-24283600-1480819245_thumb.gif

 

I don't see any information about that 6-pin header though, just how to wire it up to the 580 analog board.  :(

 

Maybe I can find documentation on the 580 analog board, then? If I can see what those pins are for on that analog board, I could correlate them with the conductors from the Q630.

 

In the very least, it looks like they neglected to use one of the conductors, so now I know one is pretty much useless.

Edited by Floofies

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At least that one's now backed up. I think that may be an alternate version of the original detailing the full harness/connector, not just the 3V fix for the 6360/6400 PCI implementation. This one's pretty off point for your needs, but good to have anyway.

 

Stuart Bell, where are you?

 

 

 

edit: mineral, are you still lurking here?

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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Huh. The two +5VDC lines to the LB aren't actually separate 5V lines... they are 100% connected to the same circuit both on the PSU and on the LB; in other words it is not 10V, but actually 5V spread out over two wires. (By the way, does anyone know how I can clearly notate that in the diagram?) Is there any reason in particular it may have been put together that way? If there isn't a good reason, I'm just going to use one of those conductors on the adapter. At this point, it's time for some teeth-gritting experiments which involve possibly frying the LB... for science!

 

Moving along: a new CF card is in the mail, soon to be followed by another adapter if I can't get the Startech/Syba one to work. I'm hoping I can mess with it enough/modify it, because I'm getting awfully close to the end of my budget.

 

I have some female DB25-IDC connectors in the mail as well. That will allow me to crimp right onto the floppy drive cable, converting it to DB25, and then back again in the floppy's enclosure. I can think of a few reasons this may not work. but it's cool enough to try!

Edited by Floofies

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From what I recall, you can't convert 5V to 10V without from a PSU having just one rail(?) you need a transformer. The two 5V lines are separated coming from the AB, might the peripheral power line have less "conditioning" than the LB line? Maybe check the AB end to see if there's a difference after all.

 

Following this thread with interest, one of my hacks involves running a 6500 board in a Classic using a very small ATX PSU.

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Jt, as far as I can tell, the conductors on the LB go into the exact same 5V supply layer in the PCB. 100% the same circuit on both ends. I also tested directly from the 5V pin on the ADB socket. I went as far as ripping one of the PSU's apart. Here's where all the 5V lines are coming from, one big glob:

 

post-4627-0-61484800-1481043371_thumb.jpg

 

 

And the adapter... Yes, that is all the LB needs for power!

 

post-4627-0-09667100-1481044837_thumb.jpg

Edited by Floofies

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For what it's worth, I used an IDE->CF adapter and a normal 256MB CF card for a PC that I built.  It was running PFSense and served as my router and firewall for at least a year.  It ran 24/7 and I had the traffic logs recording data the whole time.

 

I did end up taking it out of service because the CF card died but it was a good experiment for me to see how long they can last.  I'm not sure how much data was actually being written to the card and how much was stored in RAM, but in any case, I was very happy with the results.  CF cards are cheap and it would be very easy to image the card and simply replace it if/when it goes TU.

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Making some progress in my research about how the Q630 controls power. There is a Power IC on the board which talks to the CPU, which makes logical voltage changes on the 6-pin header. I knew that much just by looking at the board, but not the specifics. Now that I've done some reading, I think the power control scheme may be similar to the early Macintosh II family, as it appears to behave almost exactly like it.
 
All of the following Mac II information closely matches what I see in the Quadra 630, and confirms the findings of my experiments:
 

... when the computer is off, the /POWERON signal is held high by the same battery that runs the real-time clock. When you press the power-on switch on the ADB keyboard, the IPOWERON signal is shorted to ground and pulled low. When /POWERON goes low, the power-on circuit connects the battery to the /PFW line. A voltage from +3 V to +6.5 V on the /PFW line causes the power supply to tum itself on. Once the power supply is on, +5 V from the power supply holds the /PFW signal high, keeping the power supply on.


I must say I am feeling very confident now! I will proceed with some more experiments (AKA shorting random wires :lol:) involving the ATX PSU. Since ATX PSU's power on by shorting PS_ON# to ground, which is basically the opposite of what the Q630 does, I will have to make some sort of hardware hack for this.

 

The circuitry may not be a 100% match, but it functions the same:

 

post-4627-0-98167300-1482287392_thumb.gif

Edited by Floofies

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OK, folks, this looks very straightforward now that I know what I'm looking at. Guides already exist for sticking ATX PSU's inside /PFW-enabled Macs, so my investigation and experimentation has come to a close. I will still post an updated pinout guide for the Dyna-Comp PSU later.

 

All I need to do is invert the /PFW line and connect it to PS_ON#, which can do with a CMOS 74HCT04.

http://www.radiomods.co.nz/imactoatxconversion/

http://www.applefritter.com/node/6429

 

 

In other news, I found a possible case for the floppy drive. It's the LaCie Joule HD 730 case I had gutted for parts to make the CD-ROM enclosure. Two of the screwholes line up perfectly, so all that needs to be done is a hacksaw job on the front.

 

post-4627-0-51922400-1482776051_thumb.jpg

Edited by Floofies

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She' s alive! She's ALIVE!

 

post-4627-0-36910700-1483838255_thumb.jpg

post-4627-0-76556200-1483838278_thumb.jpg

 

I wired up a TI 74HCT04 Inverter with the /PFW and +5VDC pins on the 6-pin header, connecting the output pin to the PS_ON# pin in the ATX PSU; it fired right up and I yelled! Pretty sure I scared the neighbors.

 

post-4627-0-59461200-1483838579_thumb.jpg

 

There is one issue, though. /PFW is being held abnormally high, and won't go low, or won't go low long enough for my meter to see it. This prevents the PSU from turning off, and just resets the machine when the programmer's switch is pressed. Shorting /PFW to ground manually does the job, thankfully, so I know it's functionally able to turn the PSU off. Kind if frustratng, I wonder what the issue is... I suppose it's possible the /PFW line gets pulled lower, but not to 0V, maybe keeping the inverter stuck.

Edited by Floofies

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She' s alive! She's ALIVE!

 

Mazel Tov! That's great stuff you're coming up with in the process.  8-)

 

I'm really looking forward to your final report, having the electrical characteristics of the conversion mapped out in addition to the usual basic wiring diagram will the the first I've seen for any ATX conversion. You're saving me quite a bit of the kind of work I enjoy the least. I've got three 6500 based projects alone on the backburner awaiting ATX PSU conversions as well as others like the SuperIIsi which needs a lot of beef packed into its cute little sheet metal box.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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I muddled a bit on why it wouldn't power off, and I realized I needed to make other connections. That inverter isn't monodirectional... The /PFW line is being held high by the inverter after it initially goes high at boot, so there needs to be a resistor to GND so both /PFW and the pin on the inverter can go low properly. Since this type of conversion works on ANY Mac with a /PFW line, there is a HUGE amount of resources and research already done, so I found this:

 

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/MacinPC_ATX_case/pages/ATX_Power_Adapter.htm

 

post-4627-0-31094500-1483895183.jpg

 

This here schematic is right on the money! Except it has 2 more connections made.

 

A 10kΩ resistor between the PS_ON# and +5VDC lines, then a 47kΩ resistor between the /PFW and GND lines. That connection on /PFW I figured I'd need, but I had no idea what the specifics should be. That resistor on PS_ON# definitely isn't something I thought I needed, but I guess it's the exact inverse of the issue with /PFW; PS_ON# needs to go high but  gets stuck low.

 

Now that I know I can use the ATX PSU, I'll start creating the custom case.

Edited by Floofies

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At risk of takeing this thread on a slight tangent, This has got me thinking about my failed attempt to install a ATX PSU in my 8500.

I tried to do this with a simple NPN transistor (between PS_ON on the PSU with PFW on the base of the transistor), this works - for about 5 seconds, after which the psu shuts off. I could never figure out why this happens. Can anyone give me a incite in to why this is the case, i'm sure i'm missing something really obvious but I just cant see it....

 

Anyhow, I have ordered some 74ls04's to give it a try using them

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It could be a few things, but I really don't know much about the 8500. If it's anything like the Q630, then If /PFW line voltage goes too high (Above 6V) or too low (Below 3V), the system shuts down.

 

Assuming you wired it correctly (IE: /PFW to Base, GND to Emitter, and PS_ON# to Collector), the problem was probably the fact that /PFW would be partially or fully shorting to ground, lowering it past 3V after the initial 5V-6V capacitor charge dissipates. In the Q630, /PFW naturally sits at around +3.4VDC, so that's not a lot of room for a voltage drop. I'd try to remedy that with a resistor between /PFW and Base, as you only need a tiny amount of voltage to trigger the transistor.

 

In other news, that CF card adapter I initially bought really is a wacky thing. OS8 Disk Tools can see the partitions just fine, and can even start a disk check, but I still can't mount or initialize anything. The recommended adapter is in the mail. Also, my DB25 connectors never came, and were last seen in Shenzhen, China, on December 8'th... Guess I'll be waiting awhile to proceed with the Floppy/CF parts of the project. Stay tuned for a swank case mockup. :)

Edited by Floofies

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Ugh! How frustrating! I still can't get it to shut down, even with those resistors in place. I think I need a diode between /PFW and the pin on the inverter, because I am pretty sure +5VSB (Vcc) is feeding back into /PFW and making the system stay on, even with the resistor in place. Maybe it's something weird with this type of inverter? Maybe I should use one of the regular +5VDC lines instead of +5VSB?

 

Here's the completed adapter:

post-4627-0-52599800-1484177141_thumb.jpg

 

And the 6-Pin header with inverter attached:

post-4627-0-48957400-1484177197_thumb.jpg

 

I checked the wiring a ton and tested a ton with the voltmeter, and I'm just seeing the same voltages/behavior as if the resistors weren't there. Any ideas?

Edited by Floofies

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http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/ATX_PS_in_8600_9600/ATX_supply_in_8600_9600.html

 

Inverting the Power-on line

 

I did need an inverter circuit for the Power-on line from the 8600 motherboard. This line goes high when the power button is pushed, and it needs to go low for the Power-on line in the ATX supply. Dan Calhoun used a 74LS04 IC to do this. [Previous article - see Related Links below-Mike] I realized that if I used a 74HCT04, I wouldn't need any resistors or other parts; just the IC. If you use the LS version or any non-CMOS version of the 7404, you will need the resistors Dan shows in his circuit.

Huh. So I don't need the resistors. Now I'm confused...

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I broke my hand in January and have since been distracted by other things, but I assure you this is still continuing.

 

I'd very much like to get shutdown working, so I'll be poking at this a bit more soon. So far I have two strong theories as to why it won't shut down.

 

One is the clamping diodes in the inverter have some specific tolerances either from stock, or their automatic adjustment, which don't jive with the logical low of the PFW line. The other theory is I have failed to fully connect the header, (There are 2 pins I could not map to anything) and the PFW requires one pin to ground in order to drop to logical low.

 

In any event, the inverter isn't flipping back around so that PFW shorts to ground and PS_ON shorts to the 5VSB line. If it turns out to be more trouble than it's worth, I might just ditch the inverter and use a transistor, since I can more finely tune which volages do what.

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Years ago I did a tray-loader iMac ATX conversion and went with the transistor-based circuit, and I'll note offhand that I had a lot of trouble with it "bouncing" right back on again on shutdown with the majority of ATX supplies I tried it with. It does seem to take a bit of black magic to tune it.

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