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Cory5412

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  1. I actually have a 9150 hanging around at the moment, it's for @wthww. I also have a working 840av (though I was hoping to economize on potential teardowns/rebuilds to preserve its plastic) as well as a 950 (also for wthww) and a 6100. I would be surprised if machines for lending or someone willing to meet up to test the card wasn't a bit closer though.
  2. Cory5412

    Apple PHX 100

    That's absolutely a good beginning point. I figured it would be easier to cite the actual develoepr notes, which we do have, they exist, etc etc. The other thing to remember, I'm sure everybody knows this, is that it's not just one article on LEM, it's like five articles on LEM and almost every subsequent fluff piece on bad apple products includes this misinformation.
  3. Cory5412

    Apple PHX 100

    What's worse is if someone tries to go fix it, some rando wiki editor who knows literal zero things about Macs is going to revert it and point directly at LEM as the authoritative source about the 6200 as a platform, even though we have Apple's own documentation about the platform. In reality, I hadn't thought of going to make those changes myself, but, I mean, I could certainly give it a go.
  4. Cory5412

    Apple PHX 100

    The OS itself being bad until a couple years later would definitely be a bummer. A thing I should absolutely do, and probably will, is pop an original 5200/6200 install CD in my system and run some applications on it to see what that's like, relative to how 7.6.1 and 9.1 perform on it. I might do that in the mid-near future, because my network card isn't running so the OT/AS updates needed to hop on VTools aren't exactly relevant at the moment. One thing that I'm interested in is if we've got an exhaustive list of what was in the bundles on all the variants of these things when they shipped, and whether those things were native/fat or 68k. From a "being scarred" perspective, I feel like (and, granted, I mean, I'm 31 today so if my family had one of these things at launch I would have been 7 and the understanding of computing a 7-year-old can have vs. a 30-something can have is very different) "something the machine came with" is unusable is pretty different than "something we borrowed or bought" is unusable. That doesn't excuse it and to my knowledge Apple added no disclaimers or other notes about the potential for 68k-native software to have poor performance, but even if something is "clear" it doesn't mean it will be understood, see Microsoft Surface RT being marketed as "A PC!" for a more recent example. As to why I bring it up so often: 1) it continues to get asked. 2) I want it to be abundantly clear to anybody reading this from afar who might have one of these machines or be able to find one, but, not, say, a Quadra 950 or a Power Mac 9500 that these machines are worthwhile both in 1995 and today. From a 1995 perspective, yeah, if you were upgrading from something and the new machine you bought ran your particular apps (in this case, it appears to be that "games" is the only class of application impacted in any noteworthy way) much worse than your old one, you'd be unhappy. The 6200 wasn't really marketed to upgrading Mac buyers, but that wouldn't have stopped them from getting one. From a 2019 perspective, it's not at all difficult to put a newer OS, speed-doubler, and maximize the use of PPC native apps and do whatever puttering you wanted to on this machine, about as well as any other vintage Mac would've done it. A corner of an edge of us are actually using these vintage Macs for something a 6200 would have a real hard time doing, and fewer of us than that group are *actually* doing those things, rather than just kind of touring them.
  5. Cory5412

    Apple PHX 100

    Your guess here is wrong. The stated/accepted reason is because CS devices want/use 32-bit addressing mode. In reality, it might actually work, who knows. There's been some work, if I remember correctly, on running the IIe card in the 580/630, and that same work might allow it to work in a 575 with an ethernet Comm Slot device. (if it's been successful, I dont' know the status on that.) However, CS ethernet should work with other PDS devices. that was never a documented as a limitation of any of these systems. Okay, conceded. We've gotten a little beyond the point of my statement which is that the Taylor Design article, while having a technical error or two (based on Apple's own writing) is the most correct available after-the-fact assessment of those machines. I have a 6220/75 at home, as I've said, it's "fine" with PPC native code -- I've run 7.6.1 and 9.1 with a couple different apps, which TBH almost everything I happen to use is, I'll pull out some older 68k versions of things and poke around with it at that point. The other thing to remember here is that, again, a 6200 with a monitor, keyboard, mouse, a raftload of software, and usually a modem or a printer cost 1/5 of what a 9500 with a mouse and a text editor cost. It cost around half of what a thusly equipped 7500 cost, and if you added a keyboard and monitor to a 7200, you were also at about two 6200s. It was an insanely good deal, for which there was a compromise if you bought, borrowed, or already had certain kinds of older software.
  6. Cory5412

    Ethernet via SCSI2SD V6

    VTools can only use appletalk for file sharing. It also has a web site, https://vtools.68kmla.org, FTP is available, and eventually I intend to host email on it, but those will all only work with TCP/IP. The reason to use an appletalk/DDP bridge/tunnel/vpn for vtools would exclusively be to be able to tlak to it from something too old to speak ASIP specifically. I haven't tested on my own whether or not this'll work, I need to pop the 7.1 CD into my 840 and give it a go.
  7. Cory5412

    Bad caps leading to slow performance ?

    To add: LC and LC II are indeed fine at productivity software, simple/older online software, and simple contemporary games. The other thing to note is that simcity 2000 specifically is a couple years newer than the LC/II. A 475/605 motherboard installed in an LC III or an LC III with a PDS '040 upgrade? Idle curiosity: Does anybody know what Maxis listed as the requirements for SC2000? If I'm remembering the gameplay correctly, it should still be "usable" even if it's slow, but it was originally released in 1993, so I wouldn't be surprised if the LC/II meet the requirements.
  8. Cory5412

    Ethernet via SCSI2SD V6

    AppleTalk is DDP. You can talk the apples over serial (localtalk) or over ethernet (ethertalk). IP is IP, except if you're encapsulating it inside appletalk at which point it's macIP IIRC. The point, and layer 2 encapsulation might do it, IDK, would specifically be to make connecting to vtools easier for people. I believe that @bbraun had an appletalk VPN going and I've long meant to hit him up, but IDK if he's active on here any more and so I'd have to sign up for his site or get his email and, well, "life." That said, what BBraun was running for his site was a little more focused on getting some other appletalk applications (games, specifically, IIRC) going and also only worked with, IIRC, system 7, so my thought was that by moving that task to a router or bridge piece of hardware and if you're designing something new toss in RS485 so you can talk the apples over serial as well, you can include system 6 and older as well as, say, Apple IIgses. All of that said: I haven't been able to try talking the apples with vtools from a 7.1 machine on serial yet. I need to get one of the resistor terminators for my LT connectors and I'm being lazy about it so it likely won't happen until I just go and raid my storage locker again. Until then, I can probably only talk the apples in a closed loop.
  9. Cory5412

    Ethernet via SCSI2SD V6

    As a gimme because I know some people are utterly incapable of resisting integrating the Pi into every single idea, if you could add an RS-485 interface to one and speak localtalk over it, you couuld probably work with the a2server pi image to just run your pi as a localtalk file server for apple II and vintage mac.
  10. Cory5412

    Ethernet via SCSI2SD V6

    On the v6, USB is used for: 1) mounting the SD card on a modern computer 2) managing the configuration of the tool, using an application on your modern computer. (same as the v6's micro USB port.) If @inertialcomputing (who might not be able to reply to this thread, I don't know if they have a non-vendor account, just for awareness) says it can be reimplemented, that's probably true, but that's what it does today. Unless there's a USB-A header or a USB host header that's currently not implemented, I haven't seen such a thing on my board but I haven't, like, reviewed the design. (re-reading while I work on this post, it looks like there is a header, and now that I read "with the intention of potentially adding a flash drive" I think I reember that being mentioned.) From a practicality perspective, the less expensive scsi2v5 is really most practical for almost all 68k macs. v6 becomes "important" only in the highest end and highly upgraded 68k Macs, and even then it's only important if you actually need what it can deliver relative to the v5 and you actualy use the machine(s) for that task. That said, if it can deliver ethernet and storage to a compact mac, and it can stay at approximately the same price, I can see the value thought changing, even if the storage performance is degraded. I don't know the particulars and capabilites of the SCSI2SD's CPU. Given that we're in the realm of "hundred dollars for an SCSI2SD plus whatever it'll cost for a new revision of the scsi2sd plus any other hardware involved, I'm tempted to ask another question: What about a modern localtalk/ethertalk bridge? If you can force a Pi or some other device to speak RS-485 you can sort of sidestep the need to add a NIC directly to a single machine and share appletalk-based resources with multiple machines. I need to work with @wthww on this but there was talk of whether or not it might be possible to do an appletalk-encapsulating VPN. SO, if this hypothetical modern ET/LT bridge can *also* be an appletalk VPN (vtools) then some other different possibilities are available. The other thing is that it should be possible to get such a bridge to also do MacIP bridging, making TCP/IP connections possible, for FTP, HTTP, email, etc. It's less sexy than developing a new ethernet card or a scsi NIC but it might do the trick and be ready and available faster plus one bridge added to a localtalk network built out with phonenet adapters can serve the needs of multiple computers, unlike a scsi2SD+LAN scenario where you'd need all that additional hardware for each machine you wanted to set up this way. And, one more note: the potential use case here extends beyond compacts, I think. I can see this kind of thing being useful for anybody with an LC-class machine and a IIe pds card they'd like to use, or anybody who has any number of PowerBooks, plus just anybody who has a mac that hasn't had ethernet added, or a system where something other than ethernet was the priority. I don't know how practical this would be but the other-other-other thing I can see is building these with phone jacks on them like some of the existing LT/ET bridges do, with the implication that they'll be at the end of a phonenet chain. If needed, build a modern one-jack phonenet adapter and then phone wiring of any length can be used. You could potentially build it with multiple jacks, as a modern implementation of one of the starlan controllers that also happens to be a bridge/router. A Pi might be able to do this with its GPIO pins, but given that the SCSI2SD and floppyemu got built, I would say we shouldn't be afraid to think of this as being something that's not a pi. The other-other-other thing is like old cisco routers could talk appletalk, and I believe some of them might even have had localtalk jacks, so it might be possible to just find a supply of those and have somebody build up a guide for setting them up.
  11. Cory5412

    Apple PHX 100

    also, re LC-PDS devices: it wouldn't at all surprise me if the graphics and video capture devices are the kinds of things that don't work on the 6200 (or perhaps the 575/580/630) because of the lack of actual "processor direct" access.
  12. Cory5412

    Apple PHX 100

    Probably the best Mac equivalent to the Celeron is a couple 6400/4400 and 7200 models that shipped without L2 cache. The 6200/6300 all did. I still haven't had a chance to look at the 6300 developer note to see what Apple said there. As far as I know, Apple never published a revision to the 6200 note, so it's possible that the speeds of the 603 bus are different from the two models. Notably, the only things on the 603 bus are the CPU itself, the Calpella, and the ROM/Cache, so none of the existing chips from the 030/040 platforms involved in the 630/6200/6300 platform need to run at "very" high speed. Those buses (the '040 bus connecting Calpella to PrimeTime I/II/III, F108, and Valkryie, and the '030 PDS and i/o stuff coming out of Primetime II run at) run at their own speeds. The developer note for the 6200 does also state the speed of the 603 bus (it says it's the same speed as the CPU frequency) and the i/o bus coming out of PrimeTime II, but it doesn't specify the frequencies of the 040 data/address buses. It's possible that the 040 bus in this machine runs at 37.5MHz, but the 603 bus is disconnected, logically and physically, from the 040 bus and doesn't need to run at the same speed. As the Taylor Design article says, basically Calpella/F108 is the northbridge and PrimeTime is the southbridge. Everything I've seen of newer platforms suggests that when things like "using '030 PDS cards" isn't a concern then Let's be ENTIRELY clear here: In a different subforum on this very site, somebody put a 10/100 NuBus ethernet card into a Quadra 950 with a powerPC upgrade and it wasn't meaningfully faster than the onboard network interface. I put a file on my big fast file server on my fully switched gigabit LAN and my blue-and-white G3 can't routinely break a couple megabits of download speed, in IE. (Netscape does a little better.) Classic Mac OS is HORRIFYINGLY bad at networking. That said - yes, in some cases (with router software, ASIP supports multihoming as well) two network interfaces are supported. That said, even a 6200 cost a lot more than a real switch or router even in 1995 so nobody would've done it. Ethernet/video could be an issue, but, what's NuBus like? there's machines with video, ethernet and their disk all hanging off an 020 or 030-based nubus interfaces. Ethernet+IIe card is a desirable configuration, but I have it on reasonably good authority (I asked a person who is deep in 8-bit Apple II) about it and he says this configuration is officially unsupported. "Apple says it won't work." I have never seen any english-speaking Mac user use pretty much anything other than network or IIe card in an LCPDS slot. I'm well aware that other cards existed -- even outside of Japan -- but to my knowledge the installed base is pretty much zero, relative to the number of these machines that both were in use when they were new/current/relevant and now, in a "vintage" contxt. Given the local love for the Color Classic and the existence of the CCII, I'm not at all going to be surprised to hear that this specific thing is different in Japan.
  13. Cory5412

    Farallon PCI 10/100 card questions

    It's better if you do, it *should* connect on its own, but the updated files (version numbers and files are on system7today.com) work better and allow connections to newer appleshare servers (also get the appleshare upgrade as well.)
  14. Cory5412

    Farallon PCI 10/100 card questions

    Not that this is super easy if TCP/IP isn't working, but are you using OpenTransport and have you updated it?
  15. Cory5412

    Apple PHX 100

    All or almost all of that was addressed in the response article, the second one I linked. I'll have to look at the cache stuff. In terms of 75MHz machine speed: I need to get a network card working in my 6200, but when I put 7.6.1 on it at a friend's house and we put IE5 and macbench on it, it was "Fine" - in MacBench 4 it turns in almost the same scores as a 6100/60. Given that that that's intended to be representative of ~1997's Mac productivity applications, that's "Fine" in 1995. And really, in 1995, the 6200 launched at a bit over half what a 6100 cost, in a complete bundle, and it was as fast as the 6100 was. For a home computer, that's pretty reasonable. (Yes, that's for PPC apps, but much of what came with the 6200's bundles was PPC or FAT, and PPC/FAT software was becoming increasingly common, it seems like this issue was only specifically problematic with a couple games from the time. Incredible Machine series has been mentioned a couple times.) Almost more importantly, to the point about the origin of the legend of the 6200, which is Scott Barber and Dan Knight, from the perspective of "it's 1997-2000 and I'm in a Computer Renaissance" - the 6200 should be at an advantage compared to 1995 when it was new, because by then, you'd be able to put 8+, speeddoubler 8, and a fair amount of free/cheap native software (including internet tools) from magazine coverdiscs on it, and it would be "fine" for the duties expected of a cheap used machine at the time. To the cache issue specifically, where does it specify what bus speed the cache runs at? In the dev note, the block diagram shows it being essentially directly connected very closely to the CPU, but doesn't appear to list a speed. In addition, from page 14 of the dev note: So, I think that Daniel Taylor is probably correct in saying the 256k cache runs at the full speed of the CPU. Apple certainly thought so, and wrote as much as their dev note. here is the relevant part of the diagram: Presuming here that the dark black line labeled P_D63-0 is the 603 bus, the one that runs at 75MHz in the 5200/6200. LEM, and subsequently, others, categorize the faster 100MHz+ systems based on this architeture in the same way and (incorrectly) list all of the same limitations on those machines as the 6200. It's definitely worth noting that Daniel Taylor's experiences from the '90s were on a 6300, but it doesn't invalidate anything he wrote. Curious: In what scenarios does this come up? What combination can create a performance impact? And, is that combination likely to have been used in any high amount in 1995? And, given that you can have five complete 6200 systems including productivity software, displays, keyboards/mice and usually printers and/or modems for the cost of a single bare 9500, do you think it actually matters, at all? Apple's own dev note (granted, this isn't like, "marketing material" or anything a store clerk would have been able to clarify in 1995, but they wouldn't have been sure about this re compatibility between, say, an LCII and a 630 either, *and* the implication in the text is that the PrimeTime in the original 630 did the same thing, meaning this specific limitation/situation isn't even new to the 6200, it's the second generation to have this consideration, since the LCPDS is technically an 020/030 PDS slot and the 640 is of course an '040 system) suggests that there are compatibility issues, but doesn't say anything about performance. Anyway, extremely curious as to which card combinations display performance issues, especially compared to any other LC-class 030 system equipped with either an internal modem or Ethernet. (Actually, a 575 comparison could be interesting, but I wouldn't be surprised if it also has PrimeTime or something like it.)
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