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Mac II Line

Mac IIci + 20mb RAM

Author	Topic
ido New Member Israel 57 Posts	Posted - 18 Jun 2002 : 04:45:48 hi, 1.how much does a Mac IIci /030 @ 25Mhz/20MB RAM/ stock 80mb hard drive + stock monitor and no expansion cards worth these days? 2. is it a good system for A/UX?
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 18 Jun 2002 : 06:06:27 1) Not a lot. And I have no idea what it would be in Israeli currency. 2) Decent, I suppose, although hard drive and RAM is a bit restrictive, there. ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit Mayor of NuBus City v3.0
oldmacman Full Member USA 713 Posts	Posted - 18 Jun 2002 : 07:19:00 A/UX won't work with an 80 MB hard drive. Following the rule of thumb that you need 3x as much swap as RAM, you'll need 60 MB of swap, leaving only 20 MB for /, /usr, and your HFS boot partition. For a real A/UX workstation, you'll need lots of RAM, hi-res (1024x768 or greater resolution) video, a large (500 MB +) drive, and a full '040. Better yet, get a NeXT cube, a NeXT station, or an x86 box running OpenStep. A/UX is more of a server UNIX; NeXTSTEP/OpenStep is a workstation UNIX. Official 68kMLA Music and NeXT Expert OpenStep Page at http://openstep.topcities.com/ Macs Liberated: SE, IIsi, Quadra 700, 6100, PB 5300, PowerMac 5400 PCs liberated from Windoze: 3
ido New Member Israel 57 Posts	Posted - 18 Jun 2002 : 08:21:44 quote: A/UX won't work with an 80 MB hard drive. Following the rule of thumb that you need 3x as much swap as RAM, you'll need 60 MB of swap, leaving only 20 MB for /, /usr, and your HFS boot partition. ok then... no A/UX there! quote: For a real A/UX workstation, you'll need lots of RAM, hi-res (1024x768 or greater resolution) video, a large (500 MB +) drive, and a full '040. in that case the C650/ 040@25Mhz i'm getting soon might be more sutible for it, but if quote: A/UX is more of a server UNIX maybe i should just stick to mac system 7.x... quote: Better yet, get a NeXT cube, a NeXT station, yea, right. where am i gonna find one of those? quote: or an x86 box running OpenStep. now that easyer! :D but what is OpenStep? isn't that just a linux window manager?
oldmacman Full Member USA 713 Posts	Posted - 18 Jun 2002 : 11:57:46 quote: but what is OpenStep? isn't that just a linux window manager No! OpenStep is the predecessor to Mac OS X and the successor to NeXTSTEP. AfterStep is the window manager. OpenStep is a complete object-oriented system with an interface whose handsome simplicity has yet to be matched. OpenStep has the same developer tools that Mac OS X has; you can write something with Project Builder and Interface Builder on OpenStep and compile it on Mac OS X. Since the whole system is written in Objective C, and a comprehensive library of objects is provided, writing programs takes much less time than it does on any other platform. In fact, the world's first web browser and HTML editor, WorldWideWeb, was written on NeXTSTEP. OpenStep is a variant of BSD UNIX that runs on top of the Mach kernel, so it's as stable as you can get. The floppy images and CD image are on the 68kMLA hotline server at 68k.torpedobird.com. See topic.asp.TOPIC_ID=1095.html for how to write the images to disk, and see my webpage for installation instructions. Official 68kMLA Music and NeXT Expert OpenStep Page at http://openstep.topcities.com/ Macs Liberated: SE, IIsi, Quadra 700, 6100, PB 5300, PowerMac 5400 PCs liberated from Windoze: 3
thelip Full Member USA 729 Posts	Posted - 18 Jun 2002 : 12:37:20 quote: No! OpenStep is the predecessor to Mac OS X and the successor to NeXTSTEP. ... After going to your website, i'm really interested in getting a pc and trying openstep out. I considered it years ago, but got scared off quickly. BTW, I noticed the doom2 icon in on eof your pics, where did you get the game? _______________________ Sgt. Thelip Heavy Weapons Specialist 950 division Liberated Macs: 12
oldmacman Full Member USA 713 Posts	Posted - 18 Jun 2002 : 14:50:46 I got the Mac version of Doom in a dollar store for, you guessed it, $1. The Omni Group (the OmniWeb people) did the freely downloadable version of the Doom II executable for the NeXT, which you can download at the Peak or Peanuts NeXT archive (see my Links page). I burned the WAD onto a disk and copied it into the DoomII.app wrapper. It works fine now. Official 68kMLA Music and NeXT Expert OpenStep Page at http://openstep.topcities.com/ Macs Liberated: SE, IIsi, Quadra 700, 6100, PB 5300, PowerMac 5400 PCs liberated from Windoze: 3
SiliconValleyPirate Junior Member United Kingdom 273 Posts	Posted - 18 Jun 2002 : 17:21:55 As far as the IIci w/ 20MB RAM goes you need to replace the stock drive with a 1GB Fireball or something like that. I did that and had room to spare with A/UX. The 1GB Drive is, however, now in a 7500 running Rhapsody DR2 If anyone is interested there is an x86 version of Rhapsody DR2, which was a prototype version of the orginal OS X server. I also think the 68kMLA server has DR1 x86. I have used both DR1 and DR2 on PPCs and have to say they are cute in their own little way. DR1 is basically the same as OpenSTEP with a few apps from Apple but mostly NeXT stuff as well as an almost 100% NeXT GUI. DR2 is definitely a little more Mac like, having an OS 8 style 'Workspace Manager" (read: Finder) and is almost approching OS X in it's structure apart from the obvious lack of Aqua. It still uses an OpenSTEP development environment instead of the OS X Client style version but programs with ProjectBuilder source may be interportable. Anyone who's interest could get it themselves from the OS6 Carracho server but be prepared to wait and keep resuming the file. For those with a spare 604 powered contraband PowerMac (no clones need apply) hanging around with a 1GB or larger (1 750MB and one other would do but it'd be a bit tight) I uploaded DR2 PPC to the 68kMLA server today (247MB .sit) if anyone fancies a shot at Rhapsody. I can also confirn the 247MB .sit of DR1 that is on there is a goer too -- Mark Benson FlatPackMacs http://fpm.gotdns.com 2nd Lieutenant - 68kMLA, LC Quartermaster Flat Packing Macs for 68k MLA airlift excercises Macs Liberated = 14! Edited by - SiliconValleyPirate on 19 Jun 2002 04:22:54
ido New Member Israel 57 Posts	Posted - 19 Jun 2002 : 05:00:07 and can i get open step to run on one of my macs? i have (or will have very soon, and all CPUs are of the full versions): classic II/ 030@16Mhz (probebly not on this one...;) ) Centris 650/ 040@25Mhz Quadra 660AV/ 040@25Mhz Quadra 840AV/ 040@40Mhz PowerMac 6100/601 PPC@66Mhz i don't want to install any hard to use *NIX on them (like linux or FreeBSD), and Mac System just isn't good enough. can something from NeXT run on one of these computers?
oldmacman Full Member USA 713 Posts	Posted - 19 Jun 2002 : 06:45:36 No. I guess A/UX is your best choice after all. OpenStep only runs on Sun Sparc, Intel x86, and NeXT 68k hardware, not Macs. You'll have to get an older Windoze box to use OpenStep. Official 68kMLA Music and NeXT Expert OpenStep Page at http://openstep.topcities.com/ Macs Liberated: SE, IIsi, Quadra 700, 6100, PB 5300, PowerMac 5400 PCs liberated from Windoze: 3
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 19 Jun 2002 : 06:51:13 NeXTStep does not run on any Mac, I believe. Got any NeXTCube ROMs? ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit Mayor of NuBus City v3.0
Wonkothesane Full Member USA 506 Posts	Posted - 19 Jun 2002 : 16:17:21 I reccommend A/UX on the IIci. Your 650 won't be able to run A/UX unless it has a full '040, and your Classic II, Q660/840 can't run it. A/UX was originally made for the II series anyway (IIfx). Scavenge a larger hd from one of your AV machines, then you will be able to install it. Wonko The Sane Engineer-in-training 3 Macs Liberated "You can't possibly be a scientist if you mind people thinking that you're a fool."- Wonko The Sane
ido New Member Israel 57 Posts	Posted - 20 Jun 2002 : 00:04:37 quote: Your 650 won't be able to run A/UX unless it has a full '040 it have a full one, like every other C650... but is A/UX worth it? i mean, how many apps does it even have? and won't running mac apps on it be the same as running them on a 'plain' system 7.x?
Wonkothesane Full Member USA 506 Posts	Posted - 20 Jun 2002 : 07:14:43 I want to try A/UX on my Q700 (when I get it), and I think it would be just like OS X with platinum instead of Aqua. You can run all mac applications for system 7, just like classic in OS X. Here is a good site for A/UX info/links: http://www.tecneeq.de/aux_links.html Faqs.org also has a well-written, long faq on A/UX, just search for it. Here's a quote from it: quote: There are very few people who need this type of performance though. If you need (or just _want_ ) a Unix workstation with the speed and power of Unix and the user interface and application selection of the Macintosh then A/UX is the way to go. In many, many ways, A/UX is the Unix "for the rest of us"... even if we are long-time Unix junkies. If you love the Mac, you'll love A/UX; if you love Unix, you'll love A/UX... and if you want a near- perfect marriage of the two, then you'll love A/UX. Yes, A/UX is good... very, very good :) Wonko The Sane Engineer-in-training 3 Macs Liberated "You can't possibly be a scientist if you mind people thinking that you're a fool."- Wonko The Sane
bigsadhu Junior Member Cayman Island 462 Posts	Posted - 20 Jun 2002 : 07:51:31 quote: and Mac System just isn't good enough. I find this to be a very strange statement indeed. I mean, mac hardware has its "charms", and obviously we're all macheads here, but I'd hazard a guess that this site would have far fewer members if the MacOS had been just another kludgey windows workalike, or a had a geeko CLI front end, even running on the same boxes. Just what is the MacOS not good enough for? Certain mission-critical uses maybe, or 24/7 heavy duty serving, but within its design brief I reckon its the closest thing to perfect thats been seen in an OS. I say this because it empowers the user in a way that no other OS ever has; and it is the user who is by far most powerful and important part of the human/computer symbiosis. What do you people think? Cheers! CC Air Marshall, 605 sQUADRAn Honest-to-god, by-the-book liberations: 13, Other 68Ks: 5, Contraband: 7, PCs: Is you mad?
Wonkothesane Full Member USA 506 Posts	Posted - 20 Jun 2002 : 10:19:24 Keep in mind that this was written in the early 90's, long before OS X and even Applescript. System 7 was not very powerful from the professional geek's viewpoint, CLI-based OSes like Unix which allowed more customization and user control were superior to the MacOS. Sure a GUI allows ease of use, but it does not give the user complete control like CLI does. Ease of use is not very useful if there is little to actually do. To the MacOS's credit, though, it had the best GUI in the early 90's, much more intuitive than any crude window manager or (ugh...) Win3.1 (Boy am I going to get flamed for this.....) Wonko The Sane Engineer-in-training 3 Macs Liberated "You can't possibly be a scientist if you mind people thinking that you're a fool."- Wonko The Sane
oldmacman Full Member USA 713 Posts	Posted - 20 Jun 2002 : 12:10:01 I agree with ido. The reason I've switched to OpenStep and OS X for most of my daily tasks is that the classic Mac OS is not good enough. Sure, it's easy to use, and it runs fairly fast. It's great for running one program at once on a machine that only one person ever uses. The problems with it are numerous, though; no real multiuser support, no protected memory, no command-line interface, no preemptive multitasking, and excessively high audio latency. Multiuser support for the classic Mac OS is almost nonexistent, especially on older versions. Memory is not protected; when one program bombs, you'd better restart. Force quit never works like it should. Multitasking on the classic Mac OS is crap. One misbehaving program can steal all of the processor's power, slowing everything else to a crawl. Using audio in Pro Tools is a pain because the latency is so high, and MIDI support is really bad. The classic Mac OS is a wonderful interface to a horrific supporting framework. Thank God for OpenStep and OS X. Official 68kMLA Music and NeXT Expert OpenStep Page at http://openstep.topcities.com/ Macs Liberated: SE, IIsi, Quadra 700, 6100, PB 5300, PowerMac 5400 PCs liberated from Windoze: 3
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 20 Jun 2002 : 17:23:24 quote: but is A/UX worth it? i mean, how many apps does it even have? and won't running mac apps on it be the same as running them on a 'plain' system 7.x? Yes, but you aren't running A/UX as a work system these days, you do it for fun, and a challenge of getting the images to turn into an OS! ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit Mayor of NuBus City v3.0
ido New Member Israel 57 Posts	Posted - 24 Jun 2002 : 01:40:43 quote: Yes, but you aren't running A/UX as a work system these days, you do it for fun, and a challenge of getting the images to turn into an OS! no, i want to run A/UX in order to get the most out of my old macs while still enjoying the ease of use that apple OSs tend to supply. now, you still havn answered my questions: 1. how many A/UX programs are there? is there a good enough web browser & emailer? 2. will runing 'normal' mac system 7.x programs on A/UX have any advantages over running them on system 7.x? ido.
ido New Member Israel 57 Posts	Posted - 24 Jun 2002 : 01:46:51 quote: If anyone is interested there is an x86 version of Rhapsody DR2, which was a prototype version of the orginal OS X server. I also think the 68kMLA server has DR1 x86. yea, i'd want that! were can i get x86 RD2?
oldmacman Full Member USA 713 Posts	Posted - 24 Jun 2002 : 06:58:50 quote: how many A/UX programs are there? A/UX comes with the standard UNIX tools and X11R4 (). A few GNU programs have been ported over to A/UX (see http://www.nleymann.de/appleAUX/AppleAUXMain.htm and the Jagubox archive). You can use X11 to display programs you run on a remote Linux box. Aside from that, there aren't really any commercial programs for A/UX. However, Netscape 3.0 and other Mac programs will work with a bit of configuration (see http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/index.html). quote: will runing 'normal' mac system 7.x programs on A/UX have any advantages over running them on system 7.x? Not that I know of. Official 68kMLA Music and NeXT Expert OpenStep Page at http://openstep.topcities.com/ Macs Liberated: SE, IIsi, Quadra 700, 6100, PB 5300, PowerMac 5400 PCs liberated from Windoze: 3
markymark Junior Member 223 Posts	Posted - 27 Jun 2002 : 03:54:05 John Carmack the head programmer at id wrote doom on NextStep using NextSteps development tools.
oldmacman Full Member USA 713 Posts	Posted - 27 Jun 2002 : 07:05:51 He made the levels for Quake on a NeXT also. The level editor is still in the Peak archive. Too bad nobody's gotten Quake to run on OpenStep. Also too bad that there isn't a decent free multitrack audio studio program for OpenStep or OS X. markymark, you think you could write one? Official 68kMLA Music and NeXT Expert OpenStep Page at http://openstep.topcities.com/ Macs Liberated: SE, IIsi, Quadra 700, 6100, PB 5300, PowerMac 5400 PCs liberated from Windoze: 3
markymark Junior Member 223 Posts	Posted - 28 Jun 2002 : 23:45:19 I'd like to develop something but I just havn't got the time. I'm already bouncing between 3 operating systems (linux mac windows). Maybe a port of something on linux might be the best way. If I had a cube http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/tech68k/cube.html I'd probably shelve my mac work for a while and mess around with it. I'd like to try http://musickit.sourceforge.net/ with the cube.
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 05 Aug 2002 : 12:42:07 Hey, what about Copland? will that work on a 68k mac? Does copland even have unix at it's base?
danamania Official 68k Muse Australia 1193 Posts	Posted - 05 Aug 2002 : 13:19:13 quote: Hey, what about Copland? will that work on a 68k mac? Does copland even have unix at it's base? From memory - it's PCI-PPC mac only... and it wasn't Unix underneath, but had many of the same good-bits... the preemptive multitasking, memory protection, decent task scheduling etc. Basically using all the features of the machine it ran on, unlike OS's up to 9 :D dana
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 08 Aug 2002 : 22:31:44 One would think that running Mac Apps in A/UX or Rhapsody would give them the unix advantage of things like protected memory, and preemptive multitasking ect ect. Rhapsody WILL NOT work on an iMac... upon reading the copland documentation, I have learned that you can run copland on most NuBus machines, but for any machine with copland you have to have a debugger machine plugged into a serial port... quite a good use for something with only a 20MB HD if it has enough RAM

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