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Using Modern Hard Drives on Old Macs?
- Thread starter habibrobert
- Start date
ok well, tried every combination i can think of...
doesn't seem like the dove mac snap will talk to these 10K drives.
Right now i have a Internal Zip 100 installed, its working great. booted up with external zip also hooked up to the external port, i see both drives.
Internal settings are ID5 Termination On. External settings are ID3 Termination on.
So far the 10k drives work in the Mac II.
SE
Classic
Classic II
SE/30
pretty much tried the 10k drive everything but the plus, and it works in everything else. Maybe its the plus rom that is in this dove mac snap?
dont know for the time being.. i had to make a scsi cable for this.
doesn't seem like the dove mac snap will talk to these 10K drives.
Right now i have a Internal Zip 100 installed, its working great. booted up with external zip also hooked up to the external port, i see both drives.
Internal settings are ID5 Termination On. External settings are ID3 Termination on.
So far the 10k drives work in the Mac II.
SE
Classic
Classic II
SE/30
pretty much tried the 10k drive everything but the plus, and it works in everything else. Maybe its the plus rom that is in this dove mac snap?
dont know for the time being.. i had to make a scsi cable for this.
The Plus ROMs are required for SCSI, IIRC.
What are you using to terminate the HDD? That'd be my first whack at troubleshooting your config. Are you using the external terminator kluge on all those other Macs? The MacSnap was definitely designed to be paired with a properly terminated external HDD. Termination power will also be an issue for you, it will almost certainly need to come from the HDD side of the equation. That's where your internal Zip drive is getting its termination power, it's built in
What are you using to terminate the HDD? That'd be my first whack at troubleshooting your config. Are you using the external terminator kluge on all those other Macs? The MacSnap was definitely designed to be paired with a properly terminated external HDD. Termination power will also be an issue for you, it will almost certainly need to come from the HDD side of the equation. That's where your internal Zip drive is getting its termination power, it's built in
Went back and found this post:
I think calling these 10k drives leaves a lot to be desired for terminology. Are you still using the 2.5" Seagate Savvio series drives that James1095 suggested? "Savvio" would be a whole lot more descriptive than "10k" in that case.
Buzz the TPR lines on the SIP(?) resistors on that adapter to see where they originate while you're at it.
@ trag:
] ]'> I hope this bodes well for uni's request of OWC for them to source another good sized batch.
@ habibrobert: We haven't heard back from you, how's your troubleshooting going?
Yank that puppy out of the SE/30 to use with the MacSnap and I bet it'll work.
I think calling these 10k drives leaves a lot to be desired for terminology. Are you still using the 2.5" Seagate Savvio series drives that James1095 suggested? "Savvio" would be a whole lot more descriptive than "10k" in that case.
Buzz the TPR lines on the SIP(?) resistors on that adapter to see where they originate while you're at it.
@ trag:
The OWC quantity plunged because I bought them up for my Savvios when nobody else snagged them during my waiting period. I don't think there were 6 available to that seller unless he got 'em before I got my first one. [}
] ]'> I hope this bodes well for uni's request of OWC for them to source another good sized batch.@ habibrobert: We haven't heard back from you, how's your troubleshooting going?
Then let's start referring to them as Savvios.
It will be interesting to hear about the termination implementation on that adapter and compare it to the OWC adapters in the 6100 thread.
It appears to me to be time to figure out a way to do proper termination on the Savvios. Those External Terminators are definitely a case where SCSI Voodoo is working in your favor. I'm beginning to think the Passive Passthru Terminator solution is a case of SCSI Voodoo working in my favor, especially since an Active Passthru Terminator is not working for Mr. Ksoft's 6100.
It will be interesting to hear about the termination implementation on that adapter and compare it to the OWC adapters in the 6100 thread.
It appears to me to be time to figure out a way to do proper termination on the Savvios. Those External Terminators are definitely a case where SCSI Voodoo is working in your favor. I'm beginning to think the Passive Passthru Terminator solution is a case of SCSI Voodoo working in my favor, especially since an Active Passthru Terminator is not working for Mr. Ksoft's 6100.
The adaptor i was using in the se/30 was pretty complex looking.. had a bunch of caps, resistors, diode's. A LED, Terminators, and some kind of 3 legged voltage regulator. the funny thing is, I use to have a plastic box full of these adaptors.
Another box full of 160 cables with terminators on the end. and i had about 20 Double hight 5.25" nib 40gig scsi monster drives. i sold it all to a computer store for 200, thought i was really making out this was back in 2007.
Another box full of 160 cables with terminators on the end. and i had about 20 Double hight 5.25" nib 40gig scsi monster drives. i sold it all to a computer store for 200, thought i was really making out
this was back in 2007.
From the complexity described, I'm guessing you may have an Active Termination SCA Adapter in the SE/30.
We really do need to find the specs for U160 and U320 cable termination before jumping to any conclusions.
I think my notion for designing a termination board for retrofitting the 50/68 pin SCA adapters with proper termination might be least problematic solution. I'm not very keen on using them as a source for connectors.
We really do need to find the specs for U160 and U320 cable termination before jumping to any conclusions.
I think my notion for designing a termination board for retrofitting the 50/68 pin SCA adapters with proper termination might be least problematic solution. I'm not very keen on using them as a source for connectors.
maybe we could come up with a super inexpensive solution were we just modify the 2-3 dollar adaptor, maybe solder on some kind of header. and pop in those resistor packs?
Techknight i think was going to make one, but he ended up finding a more proper solution, i think from the parts of his old q950.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4610X-4-221-331-BOURNS-10X-4-221-331-10-PIN-SIP-RESISTOR-NETWORK-NOS-3-PIECES-/230885118855?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c1d35387
maybe solder on a LED while we are at it for fun.
Techknight i think was going to make one, but he ended up finding a more proper solution, i think from the parts of his old q950.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4610X-4-221-331-BOURNS-10X-4-221-331-10-PIN-SIP-RESISTOR-NETWORK-NOS-3-PIECES-/230885118855?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c1d35387
maybe solder on a LED while we are at it
for fun.
I think it'll be easiest to Seeed a small termination PCB to retrofit those cheap adapters. Desoldering just the 68 pin connector and headering that to a termination board would certainly be less troublesome than desoldering and resoldering both the SCA and IDC50 female connectors from there and onto a full replacement PCB as far as I'm concerned. It would remain a full height 3.5" HDD profile, but should work in almost all situations I would think.
question?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4610X-4-221-331-BOURNS-10X-4-221-331-10-PIN-SIP-RESISTOR-NETWORK-NOS-3-PIECES-/230885118855?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c1d35387
Could I just solder these right to the scsi through hole pins on the back side of the adaptor? For termination?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4610X-4-221-331-BOURNS-10X-4-221-331-10-PIN-SIP-RESISTOR-NETWORK-NOS-3-PIECES-/230885118855?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c1d35387
Could I just solder these right to the scsi through hole pins on the back side of the adaptor? For termination?
Depends on the pinouts of the 68 pin connector and how many you want to use to make enough connections and how many jumper wires you want snaking around the thing for power . . .
. . . I'd say somewhere between infuriating and not bloody likely overall. For purposes of comparison, I'm guessing that making a Portable adapter cable would be much easier.
After I buzz the board and lay out the connections we'll see, but an adapter PCB would be clean and easy, you're talking about a lot of connections. better to solder four of those packs and interconnect headers to an inexpensive adapter.
Wiring unlimited voltage to an address or data line by mistake can't be good! 8-o
. . . I'd say somewhere between infuriating and not bloody likely overall. For purposes of comparison, I'm guessing that making a Portable adapter cable would be much easier.
After I buzz the board and lay out the connections we'll see, but an adapter PCB would be clean and easy, you're talking about a lot of connections. better to solder four of those packs and interconnect headers to an inexpensive adapter.
Wiring unlimited voltage to an address or data line by mistake can't be good! 8-o
Honestly, if you are going to start making termination boards you may as well make the whole 50->80 adapter. Or buy a known good one in the first place. I realize the latter is not always easy in a world of stock photos and cheap products from random countries...
anyway *shrug* or just put more money into the IDE->SCSI project.
anyway *shrug* or just put more money into the IDE->SCSI project.
nope the adaptor from the se/30 did the same thing as the other ones.
its alright there is some odd ness where the scsi chip and the hd might not be talking properly.
i got a zip 100 back in there it works good.
still a 512k with a internal zip 100 as the booting HD is pretty snazzy... Ill take it!
I am thankful those hd's work in most all vintage mac's as is.
its alright there is some odd ness where the scsi chip and the hd might not be talking properly.
i got a zip 100 back in there it works good.
still a 512k with a internal zip 100 as the booting HD is pretty snazzy... Ill take it!
I am thankful those hd's work in most all vintage mac's as is.
I just used a "pigtail" 50-pin terminator when I installed a 68-pin WIDE drive in the 8600. You just need an extra plug on your cable. http://www.ebay.com/itm/280974736399
It's great when a 50 pin terminator works with an UltraXX0 drive, but it looks like that is not always going to be the case.
I've got all the OWC adapters I need for my own use. While uni was asking for an inexpensive solution, I prefer a neat, reliable solution at a reasonable cost. A construction error prone, less than satisfactorily reliable, fugly, dirt cheap adaptation might be fine for two or three units for personal use, but I wouldn't have anything to do with selling one to another comrade.
Good news is that there seems to be termination power pins at the end and near the center of the 68 pin connector, so there is still a remote possibility for doing it fairly simply without a Seeeding a termination daughtercard. We'll see.
@uni: too bad that fancy adapter didn't work out, have you tried jury-rigging the Savvio as an external HDD yet?
Dunno, the whole 50->80 adapter requires a lot of work to harvest and install the necessary pair of connectors inexpensively or a pair of fairly expensive connectors when bought new in small quantities. Either way, it's a lot more and more meticulous soldering to populate a custom 50->80 adapter PCB. Don't forget about the complexities of the configuration headers, the MOLEX connector, ground etc. The OWC boards are quite densely packed and not all that simple really.
I've got all the OWC adapters I need for my own use. While uni was asking for an inexpensive solution, I prefer a neat, reliable solution at a reasonable cost. A construction error prone, less than satisfactorily reliable, fugly, dirt cheap adaptation might be fine for two or three units for personal use, but I wouldn't have anything to do with selling one to another comrade.
Good news is that there seems to be termination power pins at the end and near the center of the 68 pin connector, so there is still a remote possibility for doing it fairly simply without a Seeeding a termination daughtercard. We'll see.
@uni: too bad that fancy adapter didn't work out, have you tried jury-rigging the Savvio as an external HDD yet?
It is possible the Plus uses a slightly earlier version of the SCSI standard, that those U320 drives dont emulate. They are backwards compatible yes, But to a degree and probably dont emulate every single little detail, and the timing window could be outside of the plus as well. Who knows. I do know the plus doesnt generate ANY termination voltage, which has to be present for termination to work. As the terminators tie between both Power and ground, power being the TERM voltage.
so pretty much an active terminator provides termination power correct?
Also one thing i can try, I have this 50 pin centronics terminator now installed on my apple cd drive. This has a power plug on it, for active termination / external TWR?
I havent installed one of these drives into a external yet... pretty much the whole point of them ( as far as i'm concerned ) are to be installed internally.
+ i have a ZIP 100 external that i use all the time as my bootable external.
Also one thing i can try, I have this 50 pin centronics terminator now installed on my apple cd drive. This has a power plug on it, for active termination / external TWR?
I havent installed one of these drives into a external yet... pretty much the whole point of them ( as far as i'm concerned ) are to be installed internally.
+ i have a ZIP 100 external that i use all the time as my bootable external.
Nope, an active terminator still needs power. For your test I would think you should avoid active termination because you won't be able to easily determine your test's results.
As I understand it, the difference is that there are active electronics on board that decide whether to supply termination or not and how much of it to apply for conditioning the signals. IOW, it can tell if it's located at the end of the chain or not and then acts accordingly. The IC is most commonly found on the PCB that daisy-chains the pair of Centronics-50 connectors and provides the headers for the short IDC50 cable connecting it to whatever SCSI device(s) within the external housing.
If you have an external optical drive you could borrow its adapter assembly and PSU for your test. It's the DB-25 or Centronics-50 to IDC50 adapter that would be the missing link for your test.
As I understand it, the difference is that there are active electronics on board that decide whether to supply termination or not and how much of it to apply for conditioning the signals. IOW, it can tell if it's located at the end of the chain or not and then acts accordingly. The IC is most commonly found on the PCB that daisy-chains the pair of Centronics-50 connectors and provides the headers for the short IDC50 cable connecting it to whatever SCSI device(s) within the external housing.
If you have an external optical drive you could borrow its adapter assembly and PSU for your test. It's the DB-25 or Centronics-50 to IDC50 adapter that would be the missing link for your test.
Any SCSI device can provide termination power to the bus, not just the controller. I have a few external SCSI CD-ROM drives that have a dip switch tio enable/disable the outputting of terminator power. I'm surprised the Zip drive worked on a Plus without any problems, they are notorious because they require external sources of termination power.
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