SE/30 CPU Socket Daystar Adapter Project

[trag]

I finally had time to open up an SE/30 with an eye to geometry today. Well, okay, partly I was checking whether this new batch of 50V 105C 470 uF caps would fit on the logic board. But after that, I was looking at the geometry under the frame and above the logic board.

It appears to me that there is no way to fit a PowerCache, nor a (larger) Turbo040 on top of the logic board under the frame.

Oriented one way, the upgrade blocks the logic board connector for the logic board/analog board cable. Slide it over to miss that and it blocks the PDS slot. Rotate it and move it back and it bumps into the RAM SIMMs. And this test machine has very low profile 256K SIMMs installed, so it had about as much clearance above the SIMMs as it is possible to have. I guess one could just leave the second RAM bank empty and live with a maximum capacity of 64 MB but I think the clearance would still be dicey.

There's plenty of room on top of the hard drive under the CRT, though, although the best orientation for the Turbo040 ain't great for minimizing the size (cost) of the PCB.

Soooooo......

It looks like the only workable plan is a two circuit board adapter joined by some kind of cabling scheme.

This is not good as it doubles the cost of the PCBs. Perhaps a little less than doubles since one board can be fairly small, but it means two PCBs instead of one. And it adds cost for connectors on both PCBs and high count conductor cable to run between them. It looks like the cable will need to be at least 6" long.

There are 128 pins on the 68030, although not all of them need be used. I don't think I can reduce the needed conductors to 100, so either three 50 conductor cables are needed, or two 60 conductor cables. But I don't know if the 60 conductor FFC is available in small quantities. It isn't listed on Digi-Key and Parlex might not want to make it in less than 10,000 quantity lots.

Each 50 conductor cable is ~$3 in largish (250) quantities. The connectors (four needed) are about $2.25.

So if one used three 50 conductor cables and six connectors, that adds $19.50 in cost per adapter, or about $20 per adapter. If the 60 conductor can be found, that might reduce the cost to about $12 per adapter for cabling.

The two circuit boards would cost $13.50 to $17.50 depending on exact dimensions.

The Euro DIN connector would cost about $4.50 and the 128 pin header and socket to connect to the 68030 socket is about $5.

So the total cost in materials when building 100 - 200 adapters would be between $35.50 and $47.50 per adapter. They'd probably need to sell for around $100 each for it to be anywhere near worth the effort and investment.

Anyone have a suggestion for a more affordable high density cable solution?

Anyone think that the market would bear such an adapter?

Anyone want to double check my geometry and see if they can fit a Daystar upgrade between the logic board and frame without blocking anything and with room for the adapter board (.062" thick).

 

[Unknown_K]

So you want to be able to run ethernet in the PDS slot and a Daystar using the CPU socket under the frame?

Why not just make a flexible adapter that both an ethernet and a daystar card can be attacked to? How much would custom flexible flat ribbons (like you see laptop keyboards use or HD PCD connectors) cost? Don't you have to worry about noise when dealing with CPU extenders?

I would love a cheap solution for my 2 SE30's that have ethernet to have an accelerator to, but not if it is going to be $100+.

 

[kreats]

How about using the processor direct slot & building a (cheaper) card ala artmix's?

Doesn't the PDS essentially break out the CPU pins anyway?

EDIT: some of those right angle eurodin connectors could be good on their own actually

 

[Bunsen]

Seems that you guys might have missed some of the important discussions leading up to this point. No offense intended; I'll just fill in some of the gaps till trag returns (and no doubt clarifies my more glaring errors [] ]'> )

Firstly, FFC is Flat Flex Cable - which is the kind of cable you're referring to, Unknown_K, and for which trag shows his working.

Second, the problem isn't that the upgrade takes up the PDS socket. It's that the Daystar upgrades are not SE/30 PDS compatible - they are IIci PDS cards - and the necessary adapter is rare, complex and expensive. Artmix's clone of the adapter sells for $200, and original ones are often that price or higher.

Some time ago, trag (not sure if it was independant or not, but "and I") realised that the IIcx adapter - which plugs into the CPU socket, not the PDS - was a lot simpler in construction (and cheaper, although roughly as rare). As the CPU in the SE/30 and IIcx run at the same speed, discussion began on the possibility of cloning this adapter in a shape that would fit into an SE/30.

As far as building a cheaper (PDS) adapter a la Artmix, trag's already done the sums on that, and concluded that it couldn't be reasonably done. Another reason for focusing on the IIcx CPU socket adapter.

If the PDS "just" broke out the CPU pins, then all the various Daystar PDS adapters would be as simple as the IIcx one. At most you'd just be remapping pins. The existence of logic on the Daystar SE/30 PDS adapter suggests otherwise.

 

[Bunsen]

trag - here are my questions and suggestions. I hope they are not too obtuse - bear in mind I don't have an open SE/30 in front of me.

Would IDE/SCSI type ribbon cable be out of the question?

Would it be feasible (and cheaper) to hard-solder the cable to the cards, rather than socketing it?

Would moving the hard drive to the side-mounted position help?

If you're committed to a two-PCB solution, is there any way one could socket directly into the other? I'm picturing something like this:

        Eurodin      |E3--------     Powercache
                     |
          PCB 2      |
                     |
edge connector ->    _H________       PCB 1
                         """""      
SE/30 logic board    _____"""""____  


                          CPU
                         socket

Or is there room for a vertical mounting of the Powercache, ie where PCB2 is in the diagram above?

 

[kreats]

Well the logic is to transform the IISI PDS into the IICI PDS format & would just be some simple electrical re-routing I imagine.

With regards to the initial idea - I'm uncomfortable with the idea of cabled such CPU extensions. Latency could be a problem, as could fraying of cables when routing it in tight compact mac spaces.

Personally, if I was going to spend that kind of money (I'm not) - I'd plump the extra $100 for artmix's effort and get something that was mechanically simple and well engineered.

IMO Looking into mimicking artmix or producing some simple right angle eurodin adapters would probably be more worthwhile (and lucrative) than exploring these multi extension cable options.

PS: anyone actually tried the IICX adapter in a IISI first?

 

[trag]

I'm doing this in kind of a hurry, so apologies if I miss replying to anyone's points.

One of the primary motivations for this is the (untested) possibility that the CPU adapter will allow the Turbo040 to work properly with a Micron Exceed card. My understanding from Gamba's page is that there are compatibility issues between the Turbo040 and Micron card with a PDS adapter.

Of course, it may turn out that compatibility is no better with a CPU adapter.

The other motivation is simply that it leaves the PDS slot free for normal expansion, without trying to pile too much stuff on top of it.

Bunsen covered flat flex cable pretty well. It is available in precut lengths with the ends properly terminated (fabricated to be connector ready). But 50 conductor seems to be as large as the pre-made jumpers come. Larger numbers of conductors seem to require custom arrangements and this will never be a large enough run to justify that.

I think that Artimix's design could be reproduced for less than he sells it for. However, in ones or twos, it would not be much less.

Earlier postings discussed why Artmix (or anyone) charges as much as he does, when having several hundred made. It boils down to two points. First, the materials cost more than folks probably thought. Two, he's got something like $10,000 sunk in the manufactured boards, and he has no way of knowing how many he'll sell, ultimately. So high price slows his sales, but it also helps to get all of his money back.

I don't think that Artimix's type of adapter could be done for less in materials than this CPU adapter would cost. Mainly because PCBs are charged by the square inch, and there are a lot of square inches in his design.

However, note that his design also extends the CPU lines a long length. He has them on a board instead of on a cable, and so gets some advantage because presumably the board has ground and power planes, but at these (low) speeds, it's not much of a difference. In other words the signal integrity on his board is not going to be substantially better than one with a cabling solution.

A pair of 68 pin SCSI cables might be doable, but I'm not sure it would lower the cost much. I'll look into that some time.

The Ultra-ATA 40/80 conductor cable would be ideal because the extra 40 pins would provide signal shielding. However, three cables would be needed, the density is lower so it takes up more room and more PCB space, and I have not been able to identify manufacturer's numbers for the cable connnectors. Each of the three connectors on an Ultra ATA cable is unique and only one of them is really suitable for this application.

I posted a request for the part numbers, but no one here seems to know them. Perhaps I should try over on Ars Technica?

I understand that there are some differences in SE/30 frames. The one I looked at last night does not have anywhere where one could run a vertical circuit board up to the PowerCache or Turbo040. The only decent spot is the slot for the PDS slot, and I think any such scheme would interfere wtih installing cards in the PDS slot.

I'll take another look at that possibility, but the type of high density connectors that might be needed probably can't be hand soldered. You can't get enough density in the space available for 120 pins using a plain card edge connector. There are some really cool board to board connectors available now, but they tend to be expensive and require professional soldering.

The other advantage of cable is that it's a lot easier to plug in the CPU socket board with the cables attached, install the logic board. Thread the cables up through the holes. and then connect them to the remote board. With board to board connections, you would end up either having to wedge something into place, or pressing a board down into another board after logic board insertion, and possibly dislodging the receiving board in the process.

The .5 mm pitch flat flex cable does not come terminated for soldering, only for use with connectors. The larger pitch FFC is available with solder terminals, but it takes up more space and does not come in as numerous of conductor sizes, so more total cables are required.

This may be a project with too many compromises to be viable. Plus, if it doesn't give some advantage in Turbo040 compatibility, then there may be no point.

I'm at the feasibility study point right now and the geometry was my next project marker. Needing to do more than one board may have killed it right there. I really wish it were possible to do it as one board.

I wonder if there is a board mount mate for that logic board/analog board cable connector? I'm thinking in terms of a CPU socket board that plugs into the CPU socket and into the logic/analog board connector. That way it can cover that connector. Then the analog/logic board cable could plug into the adapter board somewhere else. Hmmm.

That would add the cost of two molex connectors though.

Ooops. I digressed. So the next step is to pull the IIcx out of the attic and test it with the Daystar IIcx adapter and PowerCache and Turbo040. It should work, since that's what it was made for, but it's a good assurance test. After that I'll see if there's any way to fit the IIcx adapter in a dismounted SE/30 board. If there is I'll test the assembly on the bench. If not, then I'm at a stop/proceed point as to whether to spend money on a prototype circuit board, which would cost about $200.

 

[Unknown_K]

I wonder what it would cost to just run a cable from the PDS out the back to a box and just have a couple PDS slots there for exapnsion. Didn't somebody have expansion boxes for SE30's back in the day? You could leave one for an accelerator and 2 for normal se30 PDS mounted sideways so the PCB would be small (like a PCI riser card).

You could even provide a bay for SCSI and a small PS.

I mean if its going to cost $100+ make it unique.

 

[wally]

...I wonder if there is a board mount mate for that logic board/analog board cable connector? I'm thinking in terms of a CPU socket board that plugs into the CPU socket and into the logic/analog board connector. That way it can cover that connector. Then the analog/logic board cable could plug into the adapter board somewhere else. Hmmm.
That would add the cost of two molex connectors though...

The SE/30 logic board 14 pin power connector (vertical header assembly housing, male pins)

Molex Mini-Fit Jr connectors

Molex part number 39-28-1143

DigiKey WM3806-ND

Candidate for the proposed PC mount 14 pin dual row vertical receptacle header (female pins, no latch)

Molex Mini-Fit BMI connectors

Molex part number 15-24-7140

DigiKey WM17603-ND

 

[TylerEss]

I've got an SE/30 torn apart in the basement right now. I'll look into the same fitment issues in hopes of reproducing your results. I *really really* want it to fit without going to a two-boards-with-cable solution.

Personally, I see no problem with a solution that blocks SIMM bank B. Most people aren't using 128MB in their SE/30s and the next highest config, 80MB, is barely more than the 64 possible with bank B blocked.

What about a board that had a hole in it to allow the power connector to pass through? I assume you already thought of that but I'll eyeball it myself, too.

If it only permitted use of the 68030 PowerCache boards and the later ASIC-based Turbo040s, that wouldn't be so terrible, would it?

How many people have earlier cache-card-equipped Turbo040 cards anyway?

 

[Unknown_K]

I have 2 of the cache card 040's but no cache Oh and one of my SE30's does have 128MB, untill I find better use for it.

 

[TylerEss]

I have 2 of the cache card 040's but no cache

Which means that your Turbo040s would fit the same as the later ASIC-based ones? ;-)

 

[Bunsen]

flat flex cable / 50 conductor seems to be as large as the pre-made jumpers come.

Would 3 x ready made 40 pin cables do the trick?

CPU socket board with the cables attached

Is there some kind of pass-through socket you could purchase ready made, and jam the cable ends into the back of? Even if there is, I guess price advantage and time are still debatable.

Or, on another tip, is there any sort of crimp or IDC connector that would match the pin pitch of the CPU socket? I'm picturing 4 connectors along each side of the socket, with some pins broken off to match the hole pattern

I assume that 68030 ICE cables are way too expensive and rare. I've been tempted to pick one up each time I've spotted on one ebay, but the price has always put me off.

I wonder if there is a board mount mate for that logic board/analog board cable connector? I'm thinking in terms of a CPU socket board that plugs into the CPU socket and into the logic/analog board connector. That way it can cover that connector. Then the analog/logic board cable could plug into the adapter board somewhere else. Hmmm.

I had the same thought about the PDS socket - a pass-thru, or as TylerEss suggests, a hole.

Although I read your first post as saying the clearance problem was with the Daystar, not your adapter board.

I wonder what it would cost to just run a cable from the PDS {CPU} out the back to a box and just have a couple PDS slots / expansion box

Hey now .... One of those zero-footprint hard drive cases under the SE/30 for example. In fact, if you socket the connector on the back of the case, you could easily swap the accelerator/adapter box from one Mac to another.

 

[fogwalker]

Anyone want to double check my geometry and see if they can fit a Daystar upgrade between the logic board and frame without blocking anything and with room for the adapter board (.062" thick).

As you probably know, DayStar made an SE/30 PowerCache that replaced the original socketed CPU and was contoured to very nicely accommodate the various features of the logic board. If your board wasn't socketed, you'd send it in and they'd make it so. Of course, most SE/30 logic boards aren't socketed and so any newly designed socketed adapter would only be compatible with a limited number of the remaining boards.

One of the primary motivations for this is the (untested) possibility that the CPU adapter will allow the Turbo040 to work properly with a Micron Exceed card. My understanding from Gamba's page is that there are compatibility issues between the Turbo040 and Micron card with a PDS adapter.

Similarly, the manual for Manabu's (artmix.com) PDS adapter specifies that it cannot accommodate a Turbo 040 and Micron Xceed card simultaneously. There must be something that kept him from making the two work together. One could, however, use a less capable 030 accelerator with that video card, though obviously the Turbo 040's performance is preferable.

While an internal SE/30 multifunction card that combines CPU and SCSI acceleration, high resolution (minimum 1024x768) and high refresh rate (minumum 85 Hz, with 120 Hz ideal) accelerated external video support with Photoshop acceleration, and 10/100 Ethernet would be the ultimate upgrade from my perspective, it would be great if I could at least use individual internal CPU accelerator, video, and Ethernet cards simultaneously. If one wishes to have all three enhancements with Manabu's adapter, s/he must settle for external SCSI Ethernet. If there was a way to expand one of the slots on that adapter to permit an internal Ethernet board, this problem would be solved, though space constraints become an issue.

I wonder what it would cost to just run a cable from the PDS out the back to a box and just have a couple PDS slots there for exapnsion. Didn't somebody have expansion boxes for SE30's back in the day? You could leave one for an accelerator and 2 for normal se30 PDS mounted sideways so the PCB would be small (like a PCI riser card).
You could even provide a bay for SCSI and a small PS.

I mean if its going to cost $100+ make it unique.

After considering the limitations of existing adapters, some variant of this expansion chassis idea seems to be an alternative or even preferable solution. One concern here though is that those that were produced apparently could not accommodate accelerators, as the following excerpts from the July 21, 1992 e-mail "2-Slot Upgrade Options for the SE/30" (previously the result of a Google search) indicate:

"The Aztech 'Galexa SE/30' is comes in form of a kit that lets you (or Aztech, of course) build a modular Mac using your existing SE/30 motherboard, floppy drive, and hard disk. The kit includes a new case with room for 2 HDs, 65 watt power supply, FDHD drive, and two PDS slots. Because the original case and internal monitor are unused, this option requires that one of the PDS slots be used for a video card. The resulting modular Mac looks much like a IIcx or IIci. The Aztech option is probably of greatest interest for SE/30 users who need an extra PDS slot, but don't need an accelerator card -- color monitor plus ethernet, for example."

Note that this was a replacement rather than an expansion chassis--a sin that is likely out of the question for many of us.

"The Second Wave Expanse NB4 (or NB8) have 3 hardware components: an external box (25 x 55 x 10 cm) with 50 W power supply, PDS interface card, and special (read expensive) interface cable. One of the 4 (or eight) added 10 MHz NuBUS slots can be used for NuBUS video (for example, a MaxAppleZoom-compatible Toby frame buffer). The others can be used for any number of NuBUS cards, with the unfortunate exception of the only currently available NuBUS accelerator card, the Radius Rocket (all versions). The Second Wave option is probably of greatest interest to two kinds of Mac users: first, institutional users whose budget policies make upgrades easier to obtain and/or justify than selling an old computer to buy a new model, and second, users who need specialized boards for data aquisition and control (or extra serial ports) that are much easier to find (and pay for) in NuBUS form."

Other than producing a multifunction card, if possible, producing a NuBus expansion chassis that supports an accelerator (or which allows one to be installed in the SE/30 along with the chassis interface) and a bring-your-own ATX PSU would be the ultimate upgrade, allowing the use of more plentiful, varied, and affordable NuBus cards. Imagine an SE/30 that was equipped with a Turbo 040, Radius Thunder or comparable video card, PhotoEngine, Asante MacCon Ethernet, FWB JackHammer with a RAID array of 15,000 RPM drives (I prefer mirroring), etc. Some might suggest simply acquiring a Quadra, but having the SE/30's second, smaller monitor alongside a larger one provides great utility and in my opinion the SE/30 is the most visually appealing of any beige or platinum-colored Mac as well as the best expression of the Snow White design language. Besides, my understanding is that the large Quadra towers sound like wind tunnels, and a tower expansion chassis could be placed under a desk provided that the interface cable length was not a constraint. Something to think about, though the amount of work involved makes a multifinction card sound at least as probable (and thus equally improbable).

 

[Bunsen]

Interesting thoughts there fogwalker. The engineering involved in

producing a NuBus expansion chassis

sounds decidedly non-trivial to me, though, and it seems part of trag's goal here is finding the simplest possible solution.
Another thought here, trag: given that most SE/30 motherboards in our possession will require desoldering of the CPU and addition of a socket anyway, how about this:

1. User desolders CPU and very meticulously hard-wires from the motherboard to a breakout socket on the back of the SE/30, using a pinout defined by you
    
   
2. Common cable to expansion box (a pair of SCSI cables for example)
    
   
3. Your single-board IIcx adapter clone lives in external box, with Powercache/Turbo040

PDS passthrough (and perhaps multiple) could be achieved with a separate, straight-through cable and Eurodin connectors. The not-so-rare IIsi PDS/Nubus adapter enables one Nubus card, at least.

This would be optional, as externalising the accelerator and adapter would leave more room inside the Mac for PDS cards.

On the other hand, I can see that step 1 would be daunting for 90%+ of end users, and would limit this as a commercial enterprise.

Is my dream of a Radius Rocket in* an SE/30 coming closer to fruition?

* for some values of "in"

 

[kreats]

Why ruin a perfectly good compact mac by making it into a frankenstein? I know I don't want to & I have other macs for that.

The first step is to check if the turbo 040 works at all in a IISI (or se/30) using the IICX cpu adapter I think. Then we can ponder the possibles.

 

[Bunsen]

Well, it's a lot less Frankenstein than some of my earlier ideas }

Yes, ideally you'd want an '030 socket so you can at least return the machine to stock if you wish to. And by "on the back", I don't mean some whopping great hole carved out of the plastic - I mean (space permitting) using one of the existing removable panels.

 

[trag]

Wow. I have even less time to reply this evening, and there's more material.

Yes, I'm thinking simpler, so the various expansion chassis are not today's project. Also, I'm a bit of a purist. I want the base SE/30 unit to fit in one self-contained box, not move out into additional boxes.

Cabling schemes direct to the 68030 socket would seriously limit the audience for the upgrade because of the inability to put the machine back to stock, which is useful for many reasons.

Yes, my writing was intended to convey that the Turbo040 or PowerCache would block the cable connector, not just the upgrade adapter.

TylerEss, I would deeply appreciate it if you take a second look at the geometry and share your thoughts/conclusions.

Wally, thank you for the part numbers. I'll look into the possibility of covering/plugging into the analog/digital cable connector. Molex is generally kind about sending out samples. However, I'm concerned that the mated connectors may stick up considerably higher than the motherboard connector alone does. That may ditch that idea.

Um, 3 X 40 pin cables should do the trick. There are a number of ground and power pins which could be omitted and replaced with low gauge wire between the two boards. The issue with the Ultra-ATA cabling is that some number (seven?) of those 40 pins are connected to ground, and I don't know if that's at the designer's discretion or built into the crimp-on connector, which also grounds the *extra* 40 conductors. If it's built in then that would reduce the available conductors to 99, which may be too few.

Thanks for the interesting info Fogwalker. A multifunction card is in my dreams, but not in my near term plans. Although I have been known to bid on interesting lots of SRAM and GRAM on Ebay thinking, "This would work nicely as VRAM on an SE/30 video card."

Finally, I have picked up a few hundred sockets for the SE/30. It's less than ideal, but I figured I could offer some kind of socket installing service to folks who want to purchase an adapter, but have a soldered down 68030.

I don't know how common the older model of Turbo040 is, but I have a few of them myself. I would like to make the cache equipped model fit, but it may not be possible.

 

[Bunsen]

the Turbo040 or PowerCache would block the cable connector / I'm concerned that the mated connectors may stick up considerably higher than the motherboard connector alone does.

I realise it involves yet more soldering, but would replacing the motherboard connector with a right-angle part help at all?

expansion chassis are not today's project. Also, I'm a bit of a purist. I want the base SE/30 unit to fit in one self-contained box, not move out into additional boxes.

Rightyo.

....

BUNSEN exeunt

{cue sound of Dremel}