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Power Mac 9500 startup woes
- Thread starter Dog Cow
- Start date
I had a 9500 with exactly these symptoms, and nothing that I did (or that the previous owner, an electronics tinkerer and unix geek extraordinaire, did before me) would make that machine get past being able to set the fans and disks a-whirring. I swapped ram, washed logic board, and fiddled with scsi until the wee small hours of several weekends. In frustration, I ended up acquiring another 9500 and cannibalizing the original for parts.I tried taking out the battery, reseating the CPU card and everything else again, waiting, pressing the red button, and still nothing. Pressing the power button starts the fans running, hard drive spinning, and the green LED on, and that's it.
I have given up for now.
At the time, I wanted a 9500 for an AppleShare IP server. Despite the "snappy" plastics, and the highly unintuitive case design, I rather liked the machine for being so wonderfully quiet. All of those machines, in my experience, were like that for some reason: the Quadra 800, 840av, the 8100, 8500 and 9500. The airflow must be good? I think relative silence one of the real must-haves in a machine.
My 9500 ran ASIP 6 for a goodly while. Now, having been replaced by an 8600/300 (with the side fan removed, which is unnecessary with the 604ev processor), the 9500 just sits and dozes.
Maybe I'll try my 2x604e 200MHz card in it with Debian 5, as it would not run stably in another (non-Kansas) 8600 in my possession. You never know ... maybe that 9500 would do the trick!
as far as you know.
Have you bothered to replace the CPU card with another 604/e/ev to see if it's the CPU Card?
I have a spare daughter card that if you want to pay shipping, I will just GIVE it to you. Or for $7 I can ship you a 366-400Mhz G3 (I think) which is a MACh Carrier G3 Zif. That I know works.
for another $5, I will also give you the software for the G3 (which I paid close to $20 for OS 9/OS X Software versions)
I also have another PM 9500 board iirc, so that may get you up and running as well. I will have to check around, but I should also have the power supply from the machine. That would be another thing to check. Make sure the PSU is giving the necessary power. Test it with a multimeter and see if you have any dead leads. If you do, it may be that the CPU is not getting enough power and that could be causing the issues.
Another thought is that when I worked on mine, I found that the video card should be closer to the CPU and I had more luck with mine.
I got rid of the tower and stuff (except the electronics) because of the back falling off.
Let me see what I have. I will try to post more of what I can remember.
That PM 9500 is one TRICKY beast. I pulled more hair out with one of those than even a PC that I have had issues with!
IMHO, the 9500 was the WORST machine I have ever seen apple release in a desktop. The 7200 was better!
I have a 8500 with a G4 carrier ZIF..that if you boot from an external drive without the XLR software all I get is a grey screen. Restart several times it will boot up. But when you boot back to the 8500 drive nothing but grey screen. Ive had to swap out to a 604 card before to get it to straighten out. The preferances get messed up.
... if there's anyone still interested.
Last evening I got the 9500 out again after having given up working on it for a month. In the month since then, a mouse had crawled into the machine through the open expansion slots in the back and had left some cat food bits, urine, and "tea leaves" on the bottom floor and some of the drive bays. I cleaned out the worst of it, and the smell has diminished. Ugh. I basically took what was a fully-working Power Mac 9500 which I got for free, and somehow managed to completely hose it in one evening. But I'm still trying to get it fixed.
Reading over this topic again, there's one detail which I left out, and that was the state of the PRAM battery. Now, there is trouble in this situation because I can't remember all of the details of events, since the last time the Power Mac booted successfully to the desktop was July 2009, and the night when I seemed to have broken it was over a month ago by now.
Long story short, I can't remember if the PRAM battery was good or not back in July. I tested it with a volt meter last evening and it was flat. I tested the volt meter itself, so it is working. I unfortunately have a collection of about 5 or six 3.6 volt PRAM batteries, but they are all dead. I need to buy new ones. I remembered that the desktop G3 had a battery in it, so I pulled it out, tested it to be OK, and put it in the 9500. No change.
This could be from one of two reasons:
- the battery is low on charge. This has been noted by myself as the G3 tends to forget the date. It is the original battery which had recorded the manufacture date and hours of usage. I noted over 6 or so months ago that the G3 no longer remembers its manufacture date.
- I needed to perform additional voodoo after having inserted the battery-- either pressing the red button, leaving the battery in for awhile, or something similar.
Clearly, I need to obtain some new PRAM batteries and test those.
If the cause of the problem is not the PRAM battery, then the final problem I think is either:
a.) I managed to nuke the 200 MHz 604e CPU card
or
b.) I managed to nuke something on the mother board by putting in the two unknown DIMM sticks (as mentioned in the first post)
I have come to this conclusion due to the fact the 9500 started up with a chime and gray screen a month ago, and didn't go any further. When I opened the case to reseat the CPU card, foolishly add those two DIMM sticks, and do some other fiddling, that's when I couldn't even get a chime or video output.
Last evening I got the 9500 out again after having given up working on it for a month. In the month since then, a mouse had crawled into the machine through the open expansion slots in the back and had left some cat food bits, urine, and "tea leaves" on the bottom floor and some of the drive bays. I cleaned out the worst of it, and the smell has diminished. Ugh. I basically took what was a fully-working Power Mac 9500 which I got for free, and somehow managed to completely hose it in one evening. But I'm still trying to get it fixed.
Reading over this topic again, there's one detail which I left out, and that was the state of the PRAM battery. Now, there is trouble in this situation because I can't remember all of the details of events, since the last time the Power Mac booted successfully to the desktop was July 2009, and the night when I seemed to have broken it was over a month ago by now.
Long story short, I can't remember if the PRAM battery was good or not back in July. I tested it with a volt meter last evening and it was flat. I tested the volt meter itself, so it is working. I unfortunately have a collection of about 5 or six 3.6 volt PRAM batteries, but they are all dead. I need to buy new ones. I remembered that the desktop G3 had a battery in it, so I pulled it out, tested it to be OK, and put it in the 9500. No change.
This could be from one of two reasons:
- the battery is low on charge. This has been noted by myself as the G3 tends to forget the date. It is the original battery which had recorded the manufacture date and hours of usage. I noted over 6 or so months ago that the G3 no longer remembers its manufacture date.
- I needed to perform additional voodoo after having inserted the battery-- either pressing the red button, leaving the battery in for awhile, or something similar.
Clearly, I need to obtain some new PRAM batteries and test those.
If the cause of the problem is not the PRAM battery, then the final problem I think is either:
a.) I managed to nuke the 200 MHz 604e CPU card
or
b.) I managed to nuke something on the mother board by putting in the two unknown DIMM sticks (as mentioned in the first post)
I have come to this conclusion due to the fact the 9500 started up with a chime and gray screen a month ago, and didn't go any further. When I opened the case to reseat the CPU card, foolishly add those two DIMM sticks, and do some other fiddling, that's when I couldn't even get a chime or video output.
Lovely. I'm afraid that you will probably need to do a follow up job to clean up the mouse urine. The creature is likely to have fouled in some unusual places, so with the case open, shine a torch around and look for staining on the chassis. Fouling of the chassis is a minor problem (the steel may rust prematurely, but only on the surface), but any "splash back" may have gone on to adjacent switches or PCBs which could be damaged in the long run.
Have you thought about providing a snug, disposable mouse nest in your workshop or storage area so that if you do get unwelcome visitors, they'll be attracted to that rather than your Macs/car upholstery/random boxes of vulnerable junk?
I think that your analysis of the state of your G3 PRAM battery is about right. From the beige G3 onwards, many Macs with flat batteries boot fine; the network settings are often sufficient for the Mac to connect to the internet and to reset the internal date/time via NTP. TCP/IP and internal time are all that they need for most purposes. I ran an iMac G3 500MHz with flat PRAM battery for a couple of years without problems. I wouldn't expect a PCI PowerMac to be so forgiving.
It is improbable that incorrect DIMMs are the source of your boot problem. Different DIMM formats have a different key format, so without a lot of violence, it is impossible to insert DIMMs that will cause permanent damage. It may be possible to fit parity DIMMs in a way that upsets the PowerMac's CUDA/PMU. Installing a full power battery is the only way to start analysing the problem further -- and no Mac enthusiast can have too many PRAM batteries.
There are traps and such in the basement. Since I live in the country, mice are a constant problem.
However, you may be amused to hear this. Early this very morning, I was awoken by the sound of my cat romping around and bashing into things in my room. It must have been around 3-4 AM. Quite annoyed and sleepy, I turned on the light and squinted down at my cat. He squinted back up at me. I got out of bed and went over to him. He had caught a mouse and had been playing with it, throwing it around. It appeared to be dead. By the time I got out of bed later this morning to begin my day, the mouse was lying abandoned in another room, clearly dead.
When I come home this evening, I shall see what is left. The last time Rufus the cat caught an early morning mouse, he left the severed head on the floor in my room for my evening arrival. Lovely.
As for the Power Mac 9500, I believe that I did a suitable cleaning job. I did employ a flashlight as you suggested. I have no good PRAM batteries on hand, so once again, the Power Mac restoration project shall have to wait again. On Sunday, the machine was moved to my parents' house in town where I placed in the closet upstairs in my old bedroom. That house is suitably mouse-free, so the Power Mac 9500 will remain secure until I have time to work with it again.
It's Spring Break so I'm back in town at my parents' house. I got out the Power Mac 9500 to try putting a good PRAM battery in. The donor was the blue & white G3 (which is the main Mac at this house, nice!). I booted the G3 and then took the battery out, since I have the belief that if the machine is on, then the PRAM won't be lost as long as the battery is returned before the machine is powered down.
I took apart the 9500, put the battery in, pressed the red button, and *chime*!
Yes, the lack of a good PRAM battery was the problem.
However, we are still not good-to-go yet. The 9500 isn't attempting to boot the HD, floppy, or CD. Unfortunately, I don't have a Mac monitor here, so I can't get any video, but I'd imagine it's just a gray screen with cursor. It's likely back at the point I described in the very first post. I connected an ADB Mouse II and held down the button on startup to see if it would eject the floppy disk, and it did not.
Still more trouble-shooting to do, but I'll see if I can get it all fixed up. |)
I took apart the 9500, put the battery in, pressed the red button, and *chime*!
Yes, the lack of a good PRAM battery was the problem.
However, we are still not good-to-go yet. The 9500 isn't attempting to boot the HD, floppy, or CD. Unfortunately, I don't have a Mac monitor here, so I can't get any video, but I'd imagine it's just a gray screen with cursor. It's likely back at the point I described in the very first post. I connected an ADB Mouse II and held down the button on startup to see if it would eject the floppy disk, and it did not.
Still more trouble-shooting to do, but I'll see if I can get it all fixed up. |)
Rodus
When you install a CPU upgrade you have to pull the old card, press the reset button, THEN install the new CPU. I had that problem with my G4 1000 upgrade. My 7500 wouldn't boot until I had removed the upgrade, pressed the reset button, and then reinstalled it.
Dog Cow,
Find the reset button on the motherboard and try pressing it with the CPU out and then reinstall it and try starting up again.
When you install a CPU upgrade you have to pull the old card, press the reset button, THEN install the new CPU. I had that problem with my G4 1000 upgrade. My 7500 wouldn't boot until I had removed the upgrade, pressed the reset button, and then reinstalled it.
Dog Cow,
Find the reset button on the motherboard and try pressing it with the CPU out and then reinstall it and try starting up again.
Success!
It turns out that the problem was two-fold: first was the PRAM battery, second was a SCSI conflict. Both are two really newbie mistakes which shouldn't have taken 5 months to diagnose, but oh well...
Anyway, the SCSI conflict was between the internal CD-ROM drive and the HD. I've disconnected the CD for the time being, and the 9500 boots up just OK. I backed up the hard drive (which had System 7.6 and from the looks of the Sharing Setup control panel appeared to have come from an LC III belonging to one 'wthww') to a Zip disk, wiped it (the HD) and installed System 7.5.3 from the 9500 Series Apple Macintosh CD. Total RAM is 112 MB.
This thing is a beast. I wasted about 3 hours playing Sim City 2000 on it yesterday.
It turns out that the problem was two-fold: first was the PRAM battery, second was a SCSI conflict. Both are two really newbie mistakes which shouldn't have taken 5 months to diagnose, but oh well...
Anyway, the SCSI conflict was between the internal CD-ROM drive and the HD. I've disconnected the CD for the time being, and the 9500 boots up just OK. I backed up the hard drive (which had System 7.6 and from the looks of the Sharing Setup control panel appeared to have come from an LC III belonging to one 'wthww') to a Zip disk, wiped it (the HD) and installed System 7.5.3 from the 9500 Series Apple Macintosh CD. Total RAM is 112 MB.
This thing is a beast. I wasted about 3 hours playing Sim City 2000 on it yesterday.
"Software for processor cards in PCI power macs is not *required* since it replaces the original processor. It will run just fine, except Apple System Profiler may not display the correct speed or processor type."
Why does my 7500 boot up with a Sonnet banner under the Mac OS 9 logo and then load an extension if it's not needed?
Why does my 7500 boot up with a Sonnet banner under the Mac OS 9 logo and then load an extension if it's not needed?
Because the extension improves performance greatly, enabling all the optimizations available. When I boot with my Sonnet G3 400 MHz in an 8500 without any extensions, everything runs really slowly. I imagine it powers up with speculative execution off, the 2MB cache off, etc., for maximum compatibility, since it clearly has to run Apple's boot ROM before the extension loads.
Well, I didn't get to enjoy it for long. I packed it all up and got it shipped off to the "storage facility" the next day. I'm putting away all of my Macs so I can focus on Apple II. I want to master the Apple, and then I'll slowly ease into Mac programming later on. Otherwise, if I have both Apples and Macs at my disposal, I'll get bored after a month and start switching between the two and get nothing done. I don't even know how many Macs I have. It's that bad.
He knocked one over this morning.It's a good thing he doesn't hunt horses
