Pismo - HDD substitution in AirPort slot, possible?

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Since I've got this 54Mbps AeroCard Extreme 802.11g Cardbus doohickey that thinks it's an AirPort Extreme Card (Macsense, 2.4GHz) . . . and the AirPort slot appears to be empty . . . can some sort of CardBus adapted HDD/SSD be submerged in the empty AirPort Card Slot? [}] ]'>

The previous owner told me this card is faster than Pismo AirPort, is it? Might the Pismo be internal AirPort Extreme hostile? :?:

 

[haemogoblin]

I could be very wrong, but it is my understanding the internal Airport slot is a custom Apple slot and not like PCMCIA.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Crapdoodle Might my Mini Pci-e SSD fit in there? It'd be incredibly stup . . . Apple to have put a proprietary slot in there. :-/

 

[MacJunky]

The common internet consensus is that Apple just swapped a couple pins. People have used non-airport cards in the airport slot... but they were all wifi.

I have not seen a pinout of the slot though, so I cannot really say any way or the other. If someone who knows what they are doing has a poke around perhaps more light might be shed. I do not know what pins wifi cards use and do not use.

It would be nice if some storage could be tossed into and otherwise useless airport slot though.

 

[Gorgonops]

So, the AirPort slot is *PCMCIA*, or close to it anyway. Note that this is *not* CardBus. PCMCIA is essentially a miniaturized hot-pluggable superset of the old 16 bit ISA slot, while CardBus is a mostly-complete version of 32 bit parallel PCI. (Not PCI-e, that didn't exist when the Pismo was made. CardBus slots are backwards compatible with PCMCIA because the CardBus controller is able to sense what the card is and operate in a legacy mode. The reverse is not true: CardBus cards don't work in PCMCIA slots; they're keyed differently, and if you force one to fit you can damage both the card and the machine.)

Airport cards will (allegedly) work in a regular PCMCIA slot (you'll need to add an antenna, of course), so you'd think in theory that perhaps you *might* be able to plug a PCMCIA ATA card (flash or spinning disk) into the Airport slot, but I wouldn't bet on it. The Developer Note for the Pismo says the AirPort slot isn't just another connector on the PCI1211 CardBus bridge IC. (Which would seem to have been the "easy" way to engineer it, but whatever.) Instead the "KeyLargo" I/O chip, which contains the IDE controller, USB hub, and serial (IR/Modem) ports, hosts several "low-speed" busses to communicate with the power controller, sound chip, and the AirPort card. So you've got two problems:

A: The documentation describes the slot as being a subset of PCMCIA. That may well mean that some signals necessary to run an ATA device are missing. (As MacJunky notes people have been able to make wireless cards not labeled "AirPort" work in there, but in all cases they're Orinoco/Prism cards that use the same chipset as AirPort and thus presumably have the same interfacing requirements.) And:

B: From a software standpoint, since the slot is dedicated to an AirPort card and isn't associated with the CardBus bridge, even *if* there's enough PCMCIA support there electrically to drive a storage device it probably lacks the auto-detection support necessary to recognize anything *but* an AirPort card. (There certainly wouldn't have been any reason for Apple to write any OS/Firmware support to look for a storage device in that slot.) So, again, even if that slot can work as sort of general-purpose psuedo-ISA slot you'll have to write your own driver for anything you put in it, the OS drivers won't know to look there for devices they might otherwise recognize if they were in the Cardbus slot.

If you *really* wanted to try it and see if it "just works" (at which I'd be really surprised) your best bet would probably be a PCMCIA ATA device, or a PCMCIA->CompactFlash adapter. But I certainly won't take responsibility if trying it lets the magic smoke out of your Pismo.

(I'm actually sort of stunned reading the technote that it *isn't* just another hidden slot connected to the CardBus controller, but looking up the datasheet for the controller they used verifies that it's a model that only supports a single slot. So the Technote ain't lying.)

 

[jruschme]

JT,

I thought you were setting up the Pismo under 9.2.2. If so, I don't think the Airport Extreme card is going to work, so you may wait the Airport card if you need wireless.

 

[Anonymous Freak]

My vagaries:

• I have successfully used an "AirPort" card in a regular PCMCIA slot, and it is recognized as a Lucent WaveLAN Gold card.
  
• I have successfully used a Lucent WaveLAN Silver card (itself pulled from an original Apple AirPort Base Station,) in an AirPort slot.
  
• This weekend, I will try a PCMCIA flash memory card (same physical size as an AirPort card,) in an AirPort slot to see what happens.

Technical notes:

• The original AirPort card is an 802.11b-only card in the form factor of a 16-bit PCMCIA card.
  
• The original AirPort card slot is a (supposedly slightly modified) 16-bit PCMCIA slot. It is not a 32-bit CardBus slot. Therefore newer CardBus 802.11g cards will not work in it.
  
• The original AirPort Extreme card is an 802.11b/g card in the form factor of a standard 32-bit mini-PCI card.
  
• Later (802.11n) AirPort Extreme cards are mini-PCI-Express cards.
  
• Any 802.11 card that uses the same basic interface and chipset as its equivalent official Apple card will be identified by the OS as if it WERE an official Apple card. Hence the reason the CardBus 802.11g card is recognized as an AirPort Extreme card - it uses a 32-bit PCI connection (over CardBus instead of mini-PCI) and the same chipset as the AirPort Extreme, so the OS doesn't know the difference. Likewise a WaveLAN card identifies as an original AirPort card (because they are in fact the same physical card inside.)

It *MAY* be possible to use a 16-bit PCMCIA 802.11g card in the original AirPort slot, but I have only ever been able to find *ONE* such card, and I haven't bought one to test it out.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I guess that's why the 32bit Macsense Cardbus card is faster than Pismo AirPort.

@jr: I'm trying to get the Pismo set up with any 9.x.x (the 9.2.2 CD remains AWOL) solution that doesn't nuke the original 10.4.11 install on the internal HDD. I want to retain that for the hacked DVD and Macsense 802.11g card.

So far it won't boot from the known 9.1 on BorgMacG3 (Beige G3 HDD) in the FW box or the 9.1 HDD (last known good) pull from the DOA DA that's been sitting in the DOA QS'02.

There's no Classic build on the 10.4.11 boot drive, I'm assuming that will require the MIA 9.2.2 CD. Will it even be possible to do a retroactive Classic install anyway?

Maybe my best bet is to pull the OSX HDD and install another drive temporarily while the Pismo fills in as my main Mac?

I've also got a DOA CD, maybe I can turn that into an OS9 HDD expansion cartridge?

Joy rapture and all that schiznit! :

 

[Bunsen]

I guess that's why the 32bit Macsense Cardbus card is faster than Pismo AirPort.

802.11g is a lot faster than 802.11b. Nothing to do with the host interface.

Might my Mini Pci-e SSD fit in there?

Definitely not.

Will it even be possible to do a retroactive Classic install anyway?

Yes.

Does the Pismo have only a single Cardbus slot? If there were two, I would say just get a CF card & adapter sleeve and call it good.

I've also got a DOA CD, maybe I can turn that into an OS9 HDD expansion cartridge?

An internal one? Yes, you can do that: there are ATAPI CD bay to SATA drive adapter/mounting frames on ebay for ~$15. Alternatively you could use an ATAPI to CF adapter and CF card.

 

[Gorgonops]

Will it even be possible to do a retroactive Classic install anyway?

If you can mount the disks from your dead G4 Tower I'm pretty sure you should in principle just be able to drag the System directory over from there onto your Pismo's boot disk and be good to go. (When you say "can't boot from it", do you mean over FireWire?) There's no conflict between an OS 9 system folder and OS X, so there shouldn't be any risk in dragging the folder over and trying it.

Does the Pismo have only a single Cardbus slot? If there were two, I would say just get a CF card & adapter sleeve and call it good.

Only a single slot.

(Which is why I was initially surprised to learn that the Airport slot wasn't hanging off the second slot of a "normal" dual-slot CardBus bridge IC. As noted, looking up the datasheet for the CardBus bridge confirmed that it only supports one slot. I suppose Apple's justification for grafting the weird subset-of-PCMCIA onto the Keylargo "Southbridge" was to avoid having to include a dedicated PCMCIA/CardBus bridge IC in any desktop machines using AirPort. It makes sense in a twisted way.)

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I guess that's why the 32bit Macsense Cardbus card is faster than Pismo AirPort.

802.11g is a lot faster than 802.11b. Nothing to do with the host interface.

That I know, but guessing that the 16bit slot's speed might not be up to avoiding acting as a bottleneck the g flavor was my concern.

 

[Gorgonops]

That I know, but guessing that the 16bit slot's speed might not be up to avoiding acting as a bottleneck the g flavor was my concern.

802.11g at 54mb/sec, IE, about 7MB a second, is theoretically pretty well short of saturating an as-fast-as-possible 16 bit PCMCIA slot. (The PCMCIA 2.0 specification allows a clock speed up to 10mhz with zero wait states, making it hypothetically capable of around 20MB/sec. Most computers run it at 8.33mhz, the same as any ISA slots/internal busses they might have.)

That said, they made 10/100 Ethernet cards using 16 bit PCMCIA, and I recall them being somewhat slower in practice than the CardBus versions even though in theory 100mb Ethernet should "only" need around 12MB/s bandwidth. So depending on what overhead there might be with polling the slower bus full-speed 802.11g well be pushing it. (For instance, I remember being amazed at how much better my computer behaved when using a SCSI scanner when I replaced the cheapskate ISA controller included with the scanner with a PCI one. I don't think it actually scanned any faster but the computer wouldn't effectively *freeze* while doing the data transfer anymore.)

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Well . . . I tried two drives in the FireWire box tonight and neither showed up. The original one showed up on the desktop, but wouldn't noot. Might I have better luck with the USB connector on the FW/USB box?

 

[Anonymous Freak]

Alright, I tried a PCMCIA flash drive in a couple different machines with an AirPort slot (Cube, iMac,) and it wasn't recognized. Looks like the slot is set to only accept 802.11 cards...

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

. . . drag the System directory over from there onto your Pismo's boot disk and be good to go. (When you say "can't boot from it", do you mean over FireWire?) There's no conflict between an OS 9 system folder and OS X, so there shouldn't be any risk in dragging the folder over and trying it.

I tried that, then chose the OS9 System folder as my startup disk and all hell broke loose . . . froze up like Dante's inferno might be a better way of putting it.

Symptoms:

On powerup, I get a file folder with alternately flashing question marks and OS9 logos in it.

If I option boot no choices at all come up when I hit the circular arrow (polls buses?) and nothing happens when I click on the right arrow.

It still won't boot from the HP USB DVD-Writer . . . gotta find the Pismo optical drives.

Any other suggestions? At this point I'd gladly welcome OSX back. :lol:

On one good note, I discovered a DVD for the PDQ! :b&w:

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I think I've got it fixed now. I installed the Pismo's HDD in the PDQ, but it wouldn't boot that either. I'd been expecting that, but the plan only called for booting from the OS9 CD to delete the OS9 system folder I'd dragged over from the BeigeG3's HDD in the FW/USB box.

Worked like a charm :approve: but the OSX install wouldn't boot the PDQ, which was about what I expected, OSX wonkiness is par for the PDQ course.

I haven't tested the cleaned up drive in the Pismo yet, it's being stored safely inside the now inoperable PDQ.

The Pismo is now booting just fine off the 9.2.1 install on the PDQ's HDD. It already has Illustrator 9, GraphicConverterPPC (which I much prefer to the OSX-ified version) and my basic utilities suite all set up and ready to rock.

Pismoooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm a very happy camper! [] ]'>

 

[Gorgonops]

I tried that, then chose the OS9 System folder as my startup disk and all hell broke loose . . . froze up like Dante's inferno might be a better way of putting it.

Symptoms:

On powerup, I get a file folder with alternately flashing question marks and OS9 logos in it.

If I option boot no choices at all come up when I hit the circular arrow (polls buses?) and nothing happens when I click on the right arrow.

That is really bizarre. I'm sorry that happened, but... sheesh. I've never had problems like that willy-nilly dragging OS 9 system folders from one hard drive to another. I wonder if the system folder from your G4 tower is corrupted somehow, or if that Firewire enclosure you have the disk in is causing trouble?

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

IDK, but the HDD wasn't from either G4, it's the main HDD from the Beige G3. No biggie, I'm also holding the FW/USB enclosure as suspect. I got a strange message about the drive dismounting under 9.2.1. Dunno, live-n-learn.

HUGE news! I was doing a comparison of the Pismo spec pages on everymac and LEM to explain to Cory how LEM's presentation is more accessible than everymacs and discovered a real gem that's entirely missing from everymac, who got all the info regarding second displays wrong.

Closed Lid Mode: Pismo supports “lid closed” (or clamshell) mode, which leaves the built-in display off and dedicates all video RAM to an external display. To used closeed lid mode, your ‘Book must be plugged into the AC adapter and connected to an external display and a USB mouse and keyboard (you might also want to consider external speakers). Power up your ‘Book until the desktop appears on the external display and then close the lid. Your ‘Book will go to sleep, but you can wake it by moving the mouse or using the keyboard. The built-in display will remain off, and the external monitor will become your only display. Since all video RAM is now dedicated to the external monitor, you may have more colors available at higher resolutions. The Pismo is designed to run safely in closed lid mode, but if your Pismo runs hot (perhaps due to a G4 upgrade or high ambient temperatures), you may want to open the lid when in lid closed mode: The screen will remain off and the computer will more readily vent heat from the CPU.
To resume use of the internal display, you need to disconnect the external display, put the computer to sleep, and then open the lid. This will wake up your ‘Book and restore use of the built-in display.

No mention of this mode on everymac at all and the Pismo second display's maxres is erroneously listed as a measly 1024x768! :

My Pismo/500 is now happily running under 9.2.1 in clamshell mode pushing 1600 x 1200 24bit pixels @60Hz!

< does stimpy happy, happy, joy, joy dance :lol: >

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Strange, the VST FireWire Zip 250 doesn't work under 9.2.1. The Pismo bangs on the disk, but it doesn't mount and after the LED stops flashing the disk ejects when the button is pushed. Under 10.4.11 the drive worked fine. I checked that all the FW extensions are loaded and the the FW/USB HDD Box tested fine off both FW ports.

I guess I'm maybe on a driver hunt? :-/

BTW, this "clamshell" mode running my main workstation's 20" 1600 x 1200 LCD at 24bit is incredible! :approve: