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My First Quadra

The person you just replied to has one [;)] ]'>

I would love to do some tests. Both have full 040 at 40MHz, and, presumably anyways, system buses also clocked at 40MHz. I am curious to see how much the rest of the platform makes a difference. I would expect an 840's SCSI disk to out perform the 630's ATA disk. No, this isn't a ATA v. SCSI debate, this is an ATA performance under NetBSD is just atrocious. ATA is much faster under SSW. With SSW I would expect SCSI and ATA to be very very similiar. My limited disk benchmarks have already shown it to be competative with the 950's SCSI implementation (Actually, its a little faster)

 
Sure!

I think a more useful test would be on the IIfx. We already know that 25MHz 040 is going to be quite a bit slower than 40MHz 040. With a IIfx test, you are at least comparing clockspeed to clock speed, allowing us to determine just how much gain there is in the 68040, compared to the 68030.

EDIT: Well, also on that note, the 700 might be faster than the IIfx....... Let me know what all you want to benchmark.

 
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Update on the color X server:

I got this to build on NetBSD 7.1:

ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/arch/mac68k/contrib/Xmac68kColor/

Now, all I have is a .a file (from the compiler, I still need to link it in), so I'm still trying to figure out how to fully build everything, but, I am making some progress!

XFree86 hasn't changed much since when that source was posted and now. So, stay tuned, let's hope that I can get color X working!

 
The Quadra and '040 machines are great and I'm glad you're having a good time with it. It would be interesting to bench against an 840 to see how much the rest of the platform impacts performance.
On strictly CPU-bound tests I honestly can't think of many reasons why at a given clock speed the various Quadra models would vary much in performance. Unlike the wide variation in 80486 machines *no* Quadra systems have SRAM L2 cache external to that built into the 68040 itself. There's some variation in RAM timing, and the bigger systems with multiple sockets in some cases support interleaving, so you might see some improvement in really RAM-intensive tasks on the larger systems verses a Q605 or 630, but I wouldn't expect it to be more than a few percent.

 
I'd love to see a 3D graph of everymac's Ultimate Mac Timeline (click 1992) as a page lain flat with thin ribbons suspended above it representing the lifeline of each model at a height representing relative performance.

Standard view:

                                                             PM7100 ___________

                                               Quadra700________

                            Mac Ifx__________

             Mac II__________

128K___

128K     Mac II     Mac IIfx      Q700     7100

This is a simplified version of what I'm talking about. From both viewpoints the graph would be pretty much, if not completely identical.

Top view:

                                                             PM7100 ___________

                                               Quadra700________

                            Mac Ifx__________

             Mac II__________

128K___

128K     Mac II     Mac IIfx      Q700     7100

With the performance ribbons of contemporary models splayed across the width of their flattened color coded graphic, the progression curve would be a sight to behold, especially when looking from different angles of the 3D matrix.

I wonder if there's a 3D Typeface with the top view set at right angles to the standard view at the baseline as if it were a cast shadow? The baseline intersections of the rounded characters would be very cool.

p.s. Doing a second version representing benchmarked "real world" performance of each Mac running its contemporary version of MsWord/EXCEL under its release OS would take the all the fun out of it. This representation of "progress" would likely be an undulating wave instead of a gradual or geometric upward curve of baseline CPU performance. I'd not be surprised if feature bloat didn't show the wave heading downward. :p

 
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The Quadra and '040 machines are great and I'm glad you're having a good time with it. It would be interesting to bench against an 840 to see how much the rest of the platform impacts performance.

My apologies if I missed the conclusion to this, but: to beat the A/UX horse all the way dead, you won't ever get to the installer, the problem with the 475/605 and the 630 series is the GPU. SCSI is hypothetically possible to be overcome, and if the rest of the chipset and memory controller and access to PDS network cards is fine, the place you'll get hung up is that you can't see anything and by default A/UX doesn't try to activate a serial terminal (which is the work-around to GPU issues and linux/bsd on some powermacs.)

It would be interesting to see what you think of BSD performance on them. I've heard of some people using BSD on 630s over the years, but I don't think anybody ever did it with graphics, just as a shellbox/webserver and I don't know what the performance of that ended up being like.
Okay, the A/UX story did come to a close, but you are making me re-evaluate how it ended. The GPU seems like a logical place to start, as my A/UX just completely blacked out the screen after it started loading from CD-ROM. The screen never fully shut off like if the computer had powered off... A serial console seems like a logical place to start, but, I'm not in the mood to try to figure out how much hacking is required before A/UX will use the framebuffer.

BSD performance isn't bad. For a modern (7.1, which I am using, was released in March 2017) OS, I am pretty impressed. I have one huge complaint about it though--text scrolling from the standard text console is slow. writing to the text the first time (such as after issuing a 'clear' command) isn't bad, but scrolling text just chokes on this. Surprisingly, scrolling text in xterm is no problem. X performance is not great, but it's not a disaster either. I think it will be more usable once (hopefully not if) I get color. The whole purpose of the GUI is to have color computing. If all I wanted was monochrome computing, I would just use the terminal. (That being said there could be a case for a full screen xterm running in X, as text scrolling is indeed better there). IN the end, I have to say for what is now 23 year old hardware, it runs a modern OS pretty well. Compiling in GCC isn't bad, and it can run quite a bit of modern POSIX software. It has quite a few of the modern libraries, and I am even tempted to say that modern Java support is feasible under NetBSD. (I would have to compile openJDK though, which I haven't yet). If you want to run the latest version of Apache, or PHP, (or anything else), it will do it fine. Ethernet support is fantastic. Overall, the hardware is pretty well supported-except for two minor things. One, is that ATA is supported, but is slow as heck. ATA performance under System 7.1 (and indeed any supported version of SSW), is sooo much better. The second is that the floppy drive doesn't work. I don't know if this is a whole 68k Macintosh family issue (no drivers for the IWM/SWIM chip?), or if its a specific model problem (can't access the SWIM in the chipset). But, other than that, everything seems to work! Gorgonops mentions that back in the early 00s that a 68k would have made a decent X terminal. I would say that if all you care about is 1-bit color, then it probably would. I got a few X11 apps to compile and work fine, I just wish it had color :cc: ! Forget about programs using semi-modern window compositing libraries, and other things, I would expect those to run like absolute trash. Also, anything requiring XRENDER also won't work. Overall, as a Unix-like platform, it's good. But, after using it on a 40MHz 040, I am in no hurry to try it on my 16MHz 030 (SE/30) system. The 030 is good for what it is, but I would expect NetBSD to just choke on one of those. Also, make sure you have lots of RAM. NetBSD LOVES RAM. I have 136MB, so I'm fairly good. The minimum requirements say that you only need 8MB, but I just don't see how it could even start to boot with 8MB. That would be LOTS of swapping. The minimum requirements are in the Mac68K port installation file, perhaps that part was never updated for more modern releases of NetBSD. Also, hardly anything comes in binary form for m68k, so be prepared to do a lot of compiling if you want to use something other than what comes with the NetBSD install packages.

 
Okay so regarding the tests we would need to test the following:

* HDD performance

* CPU performance compiling a program

* CPU performance under another typical workload

* I/O performance. Tests TBD

There is probably some other things.

I had an idea to put together a megathread of HDD benchmarks across systems, using a standardized test regime. I guess I could put together a NetBSD on different machines thread.

 
On strictly CPU-bound tests I honestly can't think of many reasons why at a given clock speed the various Quadra models would vary much in performance. Unlike the wide variation in 80486 machines *no* Quadra systems have SRAM L2 cache external to that built into the 68040 itself. There's some variation in RAM timing, and the bigger systems with multiple sockets in some cases support interleaving, so you might see some improvement in really RAM-intensive tasks on the larger systems verses a Q605 or 630, but I wouldn't expect it to be more than a few percent.
Honestly, I've really been impressed what this machine has been able to perform. It's really a solid system. I think perhaps that the 630 series gets forgotten about. I don't know if it has something to do with the unremarkable case design (it was recycled into a PPC case for a few years after 68k was dead), how late it came in the cycles of Quadras, or if it just has to do with the fact that people just simply don't know about it! Perhaps some of it has to do with the fact that there is no NuBus slots, which makes it seem unattractive in some peoples view. I dunno.

 
Theres a lot of systems that are "forgotten" about! :p

Its always the IIfx, SE/30 that, 840this. If you're looking for pure performance, there are systems that can beat these easily. But if you're looking for that "Hey cool I've got an SE/30" then... you've got to get an SE/30...

Those Performas have the newer style too, so they don't really "fit" in too!

 
Ehh, Snow White design language was being phased out in 1990, it's not a surprise that something as late as the 630 was espresso design. Apple had a few interesting design notions going on in the 90s. Performas were almost always (I want to say always, but there is probably one exception) based on other machines. For example, the Performa 630 is based on the Quadra 630, but, it's missing the full 040. (LC630 is also missing full 040). The performas were usually just rebadging of other models, often with 'business' features missing (AKA FPUs, built-in Ethernet), but with bundles that would help consumers. While the performa line up was interesting, it certinally had its place in the Macintosh family. If you forget about the fact that my computer says "Performa 638CD" on the front of it, then it's a Quadra 630 to the core. If Snow White design language is all your used to, well then any Espresso design would look out of place. I don't necessarily agree with everything Apple did in the 90s, but, there were some good models put out. Just remember that Performas were Apple's 'consumer' computers, and you will be fine. For the most part, they simply are just packaged in ways to help consumers. If they are missing HW, it's usually something as trivial as LC040 vs full 040, or 68030 without 68882, vs 68030 with 68882. In the case of the 630, there is hardly anything wrong with the performa model, except that it doesn't have a full 040. In some ways, the performa model is better, as it came with the TV tuner, AV input card, built-in CD-ROM, larger HDD, etc. Sure there was no FPU (full 040) in the stock configuration, but, let's face it, most stuff under SSW doesn't need a FPU. FPU can certainly help quite a bit with software that can use it, but if your software never uses it, a full 040 is not any faster than LC040.

 
Theres a lot of systems that are "forgotten" about! :p

Its always the IIfx, SE/30 that, 840this. If you're looking for pure performance, there are systems that can beat these easily. But if you're looking for that "Hey cool I've got an SE/30" then... you've got to get an SE/30...
Maybe, but there is also quite a few people that hardly know anything about the 840av. Some are more forgotten than others. It's usually more obscure models that are forgotten about (i.e. 630). For sure more people know about the IIsi, IIci, SE/30, SE, Plus, 512k,128K, LC 1/II, CC, IIfx, Q700. While Apple produced some serious RoadApples, I think quite a few people don't realize that there were mostly good designs. The original LC series, and the CC are rough with the 16-bit data bus, but, not very many other models (MacTV, some others?) have 16-bit data buses. Macintosh II series is all 32-bit data bus, and later 030 systems were also 32-bit data bus. Sure, some of the later 030 systems had trouble competing with the IIci (mainly because of its cache card), that doesn't mean they were bad designs. I think the LC III is a nice 030 powered system. LC550 is a good 030 AIO. That being said though, while Apple had some decent consumer systems in the early-mid 90s, they were being outshined by contemporary Quadras. It wasn't until a few years after the release of the Q700, that the first 040 powered consumer systems started to show up.

Anyway, this tangent was all about 90s Apple being 90s Apple.

 
Really, there's nothing that surprising about the Quadra/Performa 630 being "unremarkable"; when the system was introduced the Quadra line as a whole had been unseated as the top-end Macintosh by the 6/7/8100 PowerPC line for several months. And on top of that, while the Q630 may well have been a reasonable performer within its own product line (the only system with a faster-clocked CPU was a Q840av, after all, and while the interleaved RAM on the 650 and 800 might also have made them *measurably* faster it wasn't by much) the absolute *level* of performance it offered was over two years old; IE, the Q950 sported a 33mhz 68040 in March 1992 vs. July 1994. The system was clearly aimed at the consumer/educational markets, and therefore totally lacks the prestige that came along with owning a high-end system like a Quadra 950/IIfx/etc, and because of its cheapness suffers various real faults, like the low-quality plastic case and (relatively) limited expandability. It's just "not interesting" because it was designed to not be interesting.

I mean, to put it another way: On the PC side Compaq turned out a number of definitive machines over the years. For instance, the 1986-vintage Compaq Deskpro 386 was the *first* 386 PC widely available, beating IBM's PS/2 model 70 and 80 by several months and essentially setting the standard for "ISA bus"-based computers incorporating CPUs faster than the 286 for the better part of the next decade. That makes it an interesting machine. That does *not* make every machine Compaq churned out with a 386 CPU interesting. After all, they were still puppy-milling out 386(sx)-based ProLineas as late as 1992. ("Prolinea" being the predecessor of the "Presario" line that took over around the time 486 CPUs gave way to Pentiums.) You can talk all you want about how your Prolinea 3/25zs is faster than the original 386 Deskpro and a better computer in any number of other ways (better video card, cuter case, lower price, etc...) but you can't reasonably expect anyone to be impressed.

One thing that is sort of interesting if you look at what Apple was selling in mid-1994 verses the state of the PC market at the time was just how large and gaping a hole Apple had in its product lineup between the top-end PowerPC boxes and the Quadras. The fastest Mac at the time was the 80mhz Power Macintosh 8100, which was at least marketing-wise an easy match for the best the PC world had to offer, which was the 90/100 mhz Pentium. You can keep chipping down until you get to the 60/66mhz PPCs in the lowest-end 6100 and 7100s, which again match up decently with the Pentium 60 and 66mhz, but then suddenly the Mac takes a huge drop down to 40/33mhz 68040 for the Quadra/Performa lines. In principle at least that's something like a 3-4x performance gap between the top Quadra and the lowest PPC. In practice the gap was far less, because in the beginning there was very little PPC-native software and in emulation a low-end PPC might even be slower than a high-end Quadra, but it's still a heck of a discontinuity compared to the PC world, where the low-end was still 33mhz 486s but between them and the top Pentium was a slew of clock-doubled/tripled DX2/DX4 variants, pretty much giving the buyer the option of hitting any arbitrary spot on the performance curve. (With the 100mhz 486DX/4 being close to a match for the 66mhz Pentium on integer ops, and the 66mhz DX/2 neatly filling the gap between it and the 33mhz baseline.) It wasn't until about nine months after the Quadra 630 that the low-end PPCs like the 6200 showed up to narrow the gap significantly.

Apple *really* could have used something like a DX/2-equivalent 68040 for that period, although one wonders what the availability of such a beast might have done to retard adoption of the PowerPC given the issues with emulation speed. Without it, well, they basically ended up, near the end of the '040's market life, essentially *lying* about it being comparable to the DX2. (IE, the infamous instances where Apple's catalogs listed the CPU speed as "66/33mhz" in reference to the 68040's requirement of an input clock double the effective ALU speed, IE, exactly the *opposite* of the 486DX/2 and, ironically, the same as the Intel *386*.)

 
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Yeah, it's like comparing a G3 to Performa whatever. G3 (and 4s) were THE high end macs. Or like above kind of said, an SE/30 to a plus. Of course after a few years the low ends will blow past the high ends.

 
Interesting discussion.

Gorgonops, I never found the case to be too bad. I don't know if I just got lucky or what, but, the case seems okay.

 
Hm. yeah, I don't know what, if anything, would impact the performance. If you used a composite benchmarking application like macbench, an 840 may win with a better GPU or for having better SCSI performance, even though it wouldn't necessarily win at things like gaussian blurs.

Tests would be better performed by someone who has both, ideally with SCSI2SDs as boot devices and relatively simple system software installs. Perhaps even a 7.6.1 install with all relevant enablers so you can confidently say that aspect is common among the machines.

Yeah, it's like comparing a G3 to Performa whatever. G3 (and 4s) were THE high end macs. Or like above kind of said, an SE/30 to a plus. Of course after a few years the low ends will blow past the high ends.
The Performa line got discontinued around that time. I believe the Performa name was dropped in 1996 or very early 1997 and so among those systems only the 6500 was really contemporary with the G3s, and only for a few months leading up to the introduction of the Beige G3 All-In-One for the education market and the iMac for the home market.

Actually, 1997-1999 was a pretty interesting time in the Mac product line, because after essentially inventing the product category of notebook computers(1) for consumers, Apple had the clearest product line ever. There was a consumer side and a desktop side and on each side there was a desktop and laptop. All of the models had pretty similar performance, it was really just a matter of what form factor you wanted, and it was presumed that the expansion and modularity (external monitor) of the beige and blue-and-white G3s would be preferred by pros.

It was a really great condensing from the mid '90s. In late 1995 or early 1996 there was, in no particular order, the Performa 630, 580, PowerMac 5200, 5300, 6200, 6300, 7200, 7500, 8200, 8500, 9500 (and models of each: such as the different 7500/100 and 7500/132), and PowerBooks 190, 5300, 280, 280c, 2300c, 520, 520c, 540, 540c, and probably one I can't remember - not counting the 1400 introduced in 96.

In 1995 you could literally buy either a 33MHz LC'040 or a 150MHz Power Macintosh, and then buy upgrade cards for that PowerMac. The jump from the 630 to the 6100 or the 6200 is pretty significant, but I think Apple got away with it because there was still a large group of people who wanted a Mac, inexpensively, and for whom performance wasn't particularly important. Running a cd-rom encyclopedia and clarisworks wasn't appreciably faster on a 6100 or a 9500 than a 630.

Anecdotally, I wrote a few dozen pages of what I was hoping would be a novel-length text on my PB180, PM6100/66, 840av, and PB1400/166C using a diskette, MacWritePro, Resolve, and some simpletext files for notes. For that particular workflow, all the systems were fine, but my favorite to use was the 840av, especially once I got that big monitor, and the fastest was definitely the PB1400.

--

As a general note about "the forgotten macs" -- it's worthwhile to note that in situ, systems like the SE/30, IIfx, 840, 900/950 and the like basically make up the small minority of Macs that were ever in production use. Setups involving those systems could easily reach over $10,000, not counting the cost of other computing infrastructure (file servers, removable media) and software. Often, these machines started at around $5000 for the machine, TextEdit, and a mouse, so you're not looking at something people were able to bring home(2).

I don't know if there's specific numbers about these, but I'm betting most pro work that happened on Macs happened on the midrange models. In the early '90s that'd be things like the 610/650 and in the mid-late '90s that'd be things like the 6100/7100, 7200/7500. We know from people who post here (Thinking of Trash80-to-hpmini for example) that used and low end Macs were often considered good enough, even for graphics work.

I have 840s because I happened to find them cheap. In the early 2000s there was a retailer near me with piles of 610s, 650s, 800s, and 840s, and they were all almost the same price. I think I paid a $5 premium for my 840 over a 650/800, which is a lot less than the thousand or so premium an 840 would have commanded over a 650 in 1993, so I went for it.

If I had one piece of advice for "everyone" it's that today it's probably worth getting started with whatever you happen to be able to get your hands on it. There's no practical difference today between something like a nice IIsi or IIci or a good LC and an 840 or 950 unless you have very specific desires.

--

One comment about "based on" -- the Performa 200/400 series were based on existing Macs, the Classic and LC series in particular. The Performa 500 series was based on the LC500 series. The performa 600 was based on the IIvi/vx.

The Performa 630 was designed as the Performa 630, and then later re-badged as Quadra and LC as an attempt to sell a greater variety of machines. The LCs into education market and the Quadras into office supply stores.

A machine designed as a Quadra or Centris would probably have ended up looking more like the 610/660 or 650. With 20/20 hindsight, it's easy to say that Apple probably should have just built a taller LC475/Performa475 with a 5.25 bay for a CD drive, or done up a cheap Q/C 610-650 variation for homes. Not having had the 630 design to start with later in 1995, the Power Macintosh and Performa 5200/6200 series would likely have been better, perhaps starting from a full PowerPC platform up front.

Anyway, just be aware that this particular machine was explicitly designed to be used in homes and classrooms for clarisworks and cdrom encyclopedias, as opposed to the professional-minded designs of the Quadras or the cost-savings designs of the LCs and Classics.

But that's particularly tangential.

(1) You could probably argue Compaq or Dell got there a year or so before, it would depend on when the Presario and Inspiron notebooks were introduced, but the 1400 was never meant to be a home/consumer computer -- it was a budget conscious business notebook. Same with machines like the 145B and the 150.

(2) That's another revalation of the Beige G3 family, it was one of the first times that the same model the professionals were buying was available pretty reasonably for under $3000 or so. Before that, only the 5000/6000 series and sometimes limited members of the 7000 families were reasonable for families. 

 
The Performa 630 was designed as the Performa 630, and then later re-badged as Quadra and LC as an attempt to sell a greater variety of machines. The LCs into education market and the Quadras into office supply stores.

A machine designed as a Quadra or Centris would probably have ended up looking more like the 610/660 or 650. With 20/20 hindsight, it's easy to say that Apple probably should have just built a taller LC475/Performa475 with a 5.25 bay for a CD drive, or done up a cheap Q/C 610-650 variation for homes. Not having had the 630 design to start with later in 1995, the Power Macintosh and Performa 5200/6200 series would likely have been better, perhaps starting from a full PowerPC platform up front.

Anyway, just be aware that this particular machine was explicitly designed to be used in homes and classrooms for clarisworks and cdrom encyclopedias, as opposed to the professional-minded designs of the Quadras or the cost-savings designs of the LCs and Classics.

But that's particularly tangential.
I won't disagree with you on the designed to be used part, but I will say with a full 040, esp. one clocked at 40MHz after the un-crippling mod, it certinally makes a respectable m68k performer. I agree, it wasn't exactly designed with business pros in mind, but, at the end of the day, I find it delivers solid performance for what it is. It is obvious that by the time the 630 rolled around, PPC was Apple's main focus. I don't have any NuBus cards. Ethernet is about the max I would expand my machine anyway, so for me the 630's shortcomings aren't really short comings. It's not too terribly different than a IIsi for example, as far as its expandability goes. The built-in CD-ROM is very nice to have, and while the internal video could use some work, it does have real video memory(1) (no VampireVideo here), and supports VGA (60Hz) output.

There's no practical difference today between something like a nice IIsi or IIci or a good LC and an 840 or 950 unless you have very specific desires.
That's why I'm really happy with this machine. As I mentioned earlier, Ethernet is my primary 'want to expand'. I don't care about too much else really. A nice accelerated LC PDS VidCard would be nice, but, not necessary. Sure there were a lot more options for NuBus graphics cards, but, even if I had a NuBus mac, I probably would use internal video (unless it didn't have one, then I would probably just use a Toby).

Often, these machines started at around $5000 for the machine, TextEdit, and a mouse, so you're not looking at something people were able to bring home
Yes, exactly. Teachtext, mouse, and system is not that useful when you have to buy lots of other perhiperhals, such as Keyboard, monitor. And software. Apple nailed it with the Performas. I mentioned Performa software bundles above, but to get a fairly complete system in the box was certinally good. While I personally don't use the Performa software bundles (I turned my machine into a TeachText,mouse, and base computer system by installing a bare 7.1.2P install from the Legacy Recovery CD), they had their place.

Performas and G3s didn't overlap IIRC. Apple's product line was very fragmented around this time. Thank goodness as you mentioned, they consolidated things. I think the iMac and SJ's return was a very fresh take on the Macintosh.

RE: the power mac x200 series, I don't know how much not having the 630 design vs having it would have influenced on it. I realize that the design is a terrible one, but, chances are something almost as terrible would have come, even if the 630 architecture didn't exist.

(1) I realize it's actually DRAM, but, close enough. It doesn't use system memory, and that makes it good enough for me.

 
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