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MDD G4: $70 a good price?
- Thread starter LaPorta
- Start date
Heh, that's less than the price of shipping one safely. It's not OS9 correct, but if that's not of concern to you I'd say go for it. Faster bits to stuff in there shouldn't be a problem.
Having had the PSUs in 2 MDDs die on me in the space of 18 months; I am not well disposed towards MDDs. If you don't mind recapping PSUs, then it mightn't be at all a bad idea.
I am still averse to it but am slowly coming around to the unhappy fact that I will have to learn how to solder, recap and use a multimeter safely.
You are, however, welcome to both of my MDDs (dual 867 and dual 1.2GHz) for the cost of shipping (albeit from Europe), but for the same money, you are at least getting one that will work, if even only for a while.
I am still averse to it but am slowly coming around to the unhappy fact that I will have to learn how to solder, recap and use a multimeter safely.
You are, however, welcome to both of my MDDs (dual 867 and dual 1.2GHz) for the cost of shipping (albeit from Europe), but for the same money, you are at least getting one that will work, if even only for a while.
All MDDs can run native OS9. The ones with Firewire 800 ports need that custom version of OS 9.2 floating around.
Here's the thing with MDDs.. they're fucking loud. Like really really loud. For OS9 you're better off with a Quicksilver. For OS 10+ you're better off with a (non watercooled) G5.
If you want to make it a project, and quiet it up, by all means.. but (personally) I think they're a crappy value, when almost always local G5s are within spitting distance of $70.
Native OS9 stuff doesn't really benefit from the dual processors so much.. hence the Quicksilver recommendation.
Here's the thing with MDDs.. they're fucking loud. Like really really loud. For OS9 you're better off with a Quicksilver. For OS 10+ you're better off with a (non watercooled) G5.
If you want to make it a project, and quiet it up, by all means.. but (personally) I think they're a crappy value, when almost always local G5s are within spitting distance of $70.
Native OS9 stuff doesn't really benefit from the dual processors so much.. hence the Quicksilver recommendation.
It'll work with the right disc.. http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4366.0.html
The Firewire 800 ports gets limited to 400 speed, same with USB. 2 gets neutered down to 1.1 speeds.
I've tried it on my Dual 1.2 MDD, and it's fine. OS X won't allow selecting OS 9 as the boot disc.. you'll have to use the CD to do so again.. if you're dual booting.
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I would personally only get an MDD as a representation of a late-ish PowerPC OS X machine. It should run 10.4 or 10.5 and most of that late PowerPC software fine.
In addition to Mac OS 9 not being good at controlling the fans on them, even on the ones that shipped from Apple being able to boot OS 9, the dual processors being mostly unused in Mac OS 9 (and: any software that does use the dual CPUs invariably runs better on OS X anyway) especially with the fact that the system supports more RAM than Mac OS 9 can reasonably address.
There are a couple reports that if you deck out a digital audio or a quicksilver/qs'02 (the three are nearly identical except for some ethernet hardware on the QS'02) and an MDD, the MDD will "feel" faster in OS 9, but I can't even get a G4/800 or a G4/1000 to feel faster in OS 9 than a 604e/300 or a G3/300 so I personally believe that to be suspect.
That said: if you want one, booting OS 9 could be a bonus (but I wouldn't bother) and you can't find any others or any others would involve shipping, I'd say to go for it.
I, personally, picked up a first-gen G5 and a first-gen Mac Pro a few months ago, mostly so I could put them away and have them on hand should I ultimately feel nostalgia for that era. For that use case, going for a G5 specifically doesn't really matter, it's just what my friend happened to be clearing out.
And that's the other thing - knowing what happened to the value of 68k Macs over the past fifteen years, it's probably worth getting and starting work on preservation (or at least good storage of) mid-late PowerPC systems now. Not to pretend they're currently modern, as the MacRumors PPC forum likes to do, but to have them in another five years or so when people start to have nostalgia for the early-mid 2000s.
In addition to Mac OS 9 not being good at controlling the fans on them, even on the ones that shipped from Apple being able to boot OS 9, the dual processors being mostly unused in Mac OS 9 (and: any software that does use the dual CPUs invariably runs better on OS X anyway) especially with the fact that the system supports more RAM than Mac OS 9 can reasonably address.
There are a couple reports that if you deck out a digital audio or a quicksilver/qs'02 (the three are nearly identical except for some ethernet hardware on the QS'02) and an MDD, the MDD will "feel" faster in OS 9, but I can't even get a G4/800 or a G4/1000 to feel faster in OS 9 than a 604e/300 or a G3/300 so I personally believe that to be suspect.
That said: if you want one, booting OS 9 could be a bonus (but I wouldn't bother) and you can't find any others or any others would involve shipping, I'd say to go for it.
I, personally, picked up a first-gen G5 and a first-gen Mac Pro a few months ago, mostly so I could put them away and have them on hand should I ultimately feel nostalgia for that era. For that use case, going for a G5 specifically doesn't really matter, it's just what my friend happened to be clearing out.
And that's the other thing - knowing what happened to the value of 68k Macs over the past fifteen years, it's probably worth getting and starting work on preservation (or at least good storage of) mid-late PowerPC systems now. Not to pretend they're currently modern, as the MacRumors PPC forum likes to do, but to have them in another five years or so when people start to have nostalgia for the early-mid 2000s.
For once I can agree with you on that front. I got the OS9 MDD release mainly to round out my collection of PortlyMacs. I've since given up on the B&W version as a Blueberry distraction from the Graphite to Mirror set.
I find your findings on that front to be suspect. Pismo/500 was far slower running Illustrator under OS9 than the QS'02/1000 with one CPU tied behind its back.
Yep, shop shipping charges for 'em on eBay for price comparisons or do an estimate IRL at the Post Office. OS9 on X-Ware will only get better and better with the passage of time.
I'm idly watching for one of G5s as well. You got a wastebasket? Those'll be the next Cube at some point.
Gotta get 'em while the gettin's good, Millennials may get tired of staring at an iPhone HUD in a few years.
I wouldn't say ANYTHING collectible of any sort is of investment quality these days. When cell phones are implanted on the mastoid bone in your skull there'll be little reason to use your head. Bog only know what will happen at that point, we'll be talking "FAKE REALITY!!!!!" :
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I got a Mac Pro 1,1, one of the ones that is a big tower and looks similar to the Power Mac G5. Though, I'd be lying if I said I didn't a little bit want a 6,1 (one of the cylindrical ones) both as an actual modern Mac to use and for the curiosity of it.
IBM is still shipping POWER servers, a company called Rapor Systems (IIRC) is shipping POWER9 workstations under the Talos brand, and Gigabyte and Tyan, if I'm remembering correctly, also have Open POWER9 boards.
But, Talos isn't really priced in the "curiosity" range.
I need to go look, but last I did (maybe a year ago) a lot of late MacPPC stuff is still being traded on and talked about with the idea that it's actually modern and usable as a current computer, which hasn't really been true from a security or practicality perspective for several years, but.
Illustrator being an example of an application that:
- can, depending on how it's being used, take advantage of additional CPU power
- will inevitably run better in OS X than it ever did in OS 9
I've mentioned this before, but most of what I do is Netscape 4/6/7 for pulling files down and testing the vtools web site, the ASIP6 administration cools, Office 98, Dreamweaver MX (I need to test out Dreamweaver 4 to see how its site management functionality is, if it works then I'll probably move to that version and use the 8600 for web authoring) and after that, mostly system 7 or super early system 8 era software.
I'm guessing, generously that on average I'm on the high end of what people are actually doing with vintage Macs, and I know there's a solid half dozen to perhaps a full dozen people legitimately doing anything higher end. (With the note that most people don't actually talk an awful lot about what they're actually doing with these systems other than collecting and upgrading them)
So, for better or worse, while it's interesting to note, I don't think most people will notice the performance difference between, well, a fairly large range of systems.
Certainly, going back to my original point, I highly doubt anybody who isn't looking for it or doesn't have some kind of personal or financial stake in it being there will notice an MDD being faster at anything under OS 9 than a QS, even/especially if they're both upgraded relatively evenly.
Mostly chiming in as a bystander to it all. Raptor Computing Systems is indeed the POWER9 workstation company, and they're about to ship a $1k-ish MSRP mini ATX variant of the Talos II called the Blackbird next quarter. I'm eager to get my hands on one as I've been really curious about POWER9 since ClassicHasClass was blogging about its uses as an emulation host for AIX, PPC Mac OS and Mac OS X and when there was some talk about what it would take to make a viable not-Intel platform for the data center.
Google has a data center design called Zaius and Rackspace has a separate design that they've been playing around with, by my understanding. All three vendors make some appearances in trade shows to show off recent OpenPOWER developments.
I'm fairly certain that Tyan dropped out of OpenPOWER after shipping a POWER8 board, and I don't believe Gigabyte has been involved in some time.
POWER10 will be interesting as there's some big names attached to its development, which I suspect is mostly herded by continuing interest in not-Intel in the data center. POWER9 is a really neat curiosity, but certainly not a cost effective solution for individuals at this time.
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Predicting what will be valuable and desirable in 20 years' time is as much an art as it is a science.
And I'm not an artist and I haven't rigorously studied the economics of collecting.
Would you have guessed back in 1992 that in 2019 an SE/30 would be worth 3 or 4 times more than a IIcx despite the two have similar prices and specs? Or that one particular card (Micron Xceed Grayscale card and adaptor) would be worth many times the value of the SE/30? The Xceed card cost a couple of hundred dollars in comparison to the many thousands required for an SE/30.
My guess is that, in 2039, it will be the case that will be the attractive part of turn-of-the-millenium Mac OS X computing rather than the exact innards, assuming that we aren't too precoocupied with Basilisk III on our Apple Glasses.
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