Mac 512k to Leopard

[napabar]

I've been trying to figure out how to get the oldest Mac that can do AppleShare (Mac 512k) and a modern Mac running Leopard to share files. Since Leopard doesn't use Appletalk anymore for file sharing, and the Mac 512k can't do TCP over AppleShare, it's been an interesting challenge. I've always known I'd have to use a Mac OS 9 machine as a bridge of some sorts. The issue is that Apple doesn't let you "share a share". Never quite sure why they choose that limitation, but it's true in OS X as well and the Classic Mac OS.

I was inspired by watching Time Machine work on a network disk. It backs up the files on a disk image that resides on the network, but is mounted on the local machine. That got me thinking, because a mounted disk image IS sharable on both OS X and Classic.

Here's what I did. I created a 100 MB disk image on my iMac and shared out the folder it resided in. On my Power Mac 6500, I connected to this share with the Chooser and IP address. From this share, I double clicked the disk image and it mounted on the OS 9 desktop. I shared this mounted disk image, and I was able to access with the AppleShare 1.1 client!! If I copied a file to the drive, it wrote back in real time to my iMac with Leopard!

Let's take it a step further. Let's say you want a Mac 512k to connect to a network share that only a modern Mac can connect to, like Time Capsule or an Airport disk, or the iPhone with DataCase software. Simply make a disk image INSIDE another disk image. Put the main disk image on the network share, and mount it on your OS X desktop. Share that mounted image to the OS 9 Mac, and mount the internal disk image on that desktop. From there, share to the 512K. You can then read and write in real time from the 512k to these modern types of network shares!

 

[equill]

Interesting and inventive. I can get downloaded software from Tiger to a 512K in an ethernet LAN, using, as you say, an OS 9 to 7.6.1 Mac as intermediary. However, the notion of writing to storage that speaks in unimaginable tongues could be useful indeed, even if not often routine.

de

 

[wood_e]

How about a localtalk to ethernet bridge?

 

[Aoresteen]

I thought the 128K Mac coud do Appleshare over AppleTalk using System 3.2 & Finder 5.3. I might be wrong and don't have my 128k set up.

The Appletalk to Ethernet bridge is the solution. I set one up in 2003 but got rid of it in 2006 when I had to move.

 

[napabar]

A Localtalk to Ethernet bridge just gets a non-Ethernet device (IE Mac 512k) talking on the Ethernet LAN. In a sense, this is what I'm doing by having the 512 plugged into the PowerMac 6500 which has Ethernet.. It doesn't change that the fact that the two Macs (512 and iMac) speak a different network protocol when they use Appleshare. Hence, my solution posted above.

I wish the Mac 128k could use Appleshare, but alas, it cannot. It can print to an AppleTalk printer on a network, but no file sharing.

 

[superpantoufle]

The Appletalk to Ethernet bridge is the solution. I set one up in 2003 but got rid of it in 2006 when I had to move.

I really would love to stand corrected, but in this case I think the Appletalk to ethernet bridge wouldn't be of any use, as pre-OS X Macs can't share files directly to Leopard Macs no more, as was the case with Tiger…

And by the way, great find napabar, I love it! Thanks!

 

[napabar]

Quick question to anyone out there. What AFP servers does Mac OS 10.1x-10.3x contain? I know that Mac OS 9 has 2.2, 2.1, 2.0 and 1.1, hence it is able to share to the Mac 512k. I don't have a Mac capable of running these older versions of Mac OS X that still did Appletalk with AppleShare to test. I'm guessing they don't serve to 1.1 clients. I'm guessing 2.1 minimum. Anyone know?

 

[Mac128]

I thought the 128K Mac coud do Appleshare over AppleTalk using System 3.2 & Finder 5.3. I might be wrong and don't have my 128k set up.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you are indeed wrong. ;-)

Appleshare requires HFS and as we all know the 128K can only handle MFS thanks to it's finite amount of RAM. That's why the 128K cannot use the HD20 (technically it can, but the HD20 must be hack formatted MFS, as the native Apple drivers require HFS as well). Additionally, Inside Macintosh goes into great detail about how AppleTalk works on the 128K vs. the 500K. In essence, the 128K loads the AppleTalk driver to print or poll a network for a single operation and the is dumped from RAM as soon as you go to a different operation. Since AppleShare server requires continuous polling to maintain a network connection with a client, the 128K could not participate. Apple could have written a custom driver for it, but didn't.

The only way I have found to network between OSX and a 128K is via MacTerminal softwareand serial transfers. It's slow, but not much more than on AppleShare 1.0. It also has the added benefit of bypassing an intermediary OS 9 Mac.

 

[napabar]

I knew you'd chime in, Mac128! Thanks for the insight on the 128k. I assumed it was a memory issue, since the 512k and the 128k are identical except for RAM.

So Appleshare requires HFS? I guess that explains why the Mac 512k Network Boot Disk includes the HD20 INT!

 

[Dog Cow]

The Appletalk to Ethernet bridge is the solution. I set one up in 2003 but got rid of it in 2006 when I had to move.

I really would love to stand corrected, but in this case I think the Appletalk to ethernet bridge wouldn't be of any use, as pre-OS X Macs can't share files directly to Leopard Macs no more, as was the case with Tiger…

No, that's untrue ( I think ). You need to use the OS X Mac's IP address, so you enter it in the Chooser of the OS 9 or older Mac. I am pretty sure that still works.

 

[napabar]

Correct. Any Mac with 7.5.5, updated Open Transport and AppleShare client, can connect to Leopard by using the IP address in the Chooser. I think what he meant was the bridge alone wont make a TCP/AppleShare challenged Mac magically connect. Examples would be any 68000 Mac, which can't run Open Transport, and as such, can only use AppleTalk with AppleShare.

 

[Aoresteen]

I thought the 128K Mac coud do Appleshare over AppleTalk using System 3.2 & Finder 5.3. I might be wrong and don't have my 128k set up.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you are indeed wrong. ;-)

Appleshare requires HFS and as we all know the 128K can only handle MFS thanks to it's finite amount of RAM. That's why the 128K cannot use the HD20 (technically it can, but the HD20 must be hack formatted MFS, as the native Apple drivers require HFS as well). Additionally, Inside Macintosh goes into great detail about how AppleTalk works on the 128K vs. the 500K. In essence, the 128K loads the AppleTalk driver to print or poll a network for a single operation and the is dumped from RAM as soon as you go to a different operation. Since AppleShare server requires continuous polling to maintain a network connection with a client, the 128K could not participate. Apple could have written a custom driver for it, but didn't.

The only way I have found to network between OSX and a 128K is via MacTerminal software and serial transfers. It's slow, but not much more than on AppleShare 1.0. It also has the added benefit of bypassing an intermediary OS 9 Mac.

Thanks! I used AppleTalk to print to my LaserWriter with my 128k but must have moved files with my upgraded 128K MacPlus machine.

I really need to get my 128 set up again.

 

[JDW]

...pre-OS X Macs can't share files directly to Leopard Macs no more, as was the case with Tiger…

False. Pre-OSX Macs, including 68k Macs can indeed share files directly with Tiger (and probably Leopard too, but I've not tested that yet).

Specifically, my SE/30 is a 68k Mac. I can fileshare directly from my SE/30 running System 7.5.5 with my OS 10.4 G4 Cube. But of course, you have to know the procedure. I've outlined that specific procedure in this detailed thread. Pull up that thread and search for "TCPquantum" in my (JDW) reply to "Doug." That post will get you started. When you have finished reading that page of posts, click "Newer >" at the bottom right of the page and read the posts on the next page. I list a lot of information on both pages, but the second page is a summary of all you must do.

As to getting a 512k to directly network with OS X, I've not been able to do that. But honestly, I've not spent time worrying about it either because I just copy files to floppy on the 512, plop the floppy into my SE/30 and then I can send the files over Ethernet to my Cube.

 

[superpantoufle]

That's interesting, thanks. I haven't read the whole thing yet, though. But I sure will! And I haven't been aware of those kind of problems.

My point was that, in my experience, I can't even connect to my Leopard's machine no more. I can still enter its IP address in the Chooser, see its name and available shares, authenticate, and boom! The Chooser unexpectidly quits with an error. On all kind of vintage Macs, 68k and PPC, from System 7 to OS 9, with different versions of AppleShare, Open Transport, etc.

The standard procedure that should work is the one described here, over at System7today:

http://main.system7today.com/articles/leopard/tutorial1/index.html

And I'm in the exact same situation that the guys who can't connect.

What's funny is that I just saw that napabar (hopefully the same one! ) is claiming there that it works. But for me, it just doesn't.

Not a terrible issue, though, as Im doing FTP instead!

 

[equill]

How long do you give the Mac after the arrival of the 'Chooser has quit unexpectedly because ... &c? Given that you are confident that the version of AppleShare (Client) is the most suitable for the OS—and that doesn't always mean the version loaded from an Install CD/Disk—try giving the Mac a few seconds to think, dismiss the error window, and close Chooser. You may be pleasantly surprised to find the server's volume mounted, despite the message, whereafter file exchange proceeds quite happily.

I haven't made a systematic survey of the matter, in but a majority of cases (>50%?) I've lately been finding, in Mac OS 9 and under clients mounting OS 10.4.11 (I haven't tried 10.5) server aliases, that this is the case. If it works for you too, good. If not, check the link above or go back to teeth-gnashing.

de

 

[napabar]

Yup, that was me! I had that problem with my Color Classic and 7.6.1. However, My PowerMac 6500 has no such troubles with 7.6.1-9.2.2.

Here's what I posted on System 7 today as a workaround.

Just found out that I can connect to my iMac with 10.5 by using AFP Enagage! that comes with Shareware IP. It doesn't let you log in as the owner, like the chooser offers, but it will get you connected to shares you have manually setup in OS X. Note: Mine give me an error that it fails to mount the AFP URL I've typed in, but it mounts regardless.

 

[JDW]

The Appleshare compatibility page that Equill mentions says some things that are not crystal clear. For example, I have an 030 SE/30 running System 7.5.5. I read through that information with that in mind. But the "Support Platforms" section at the top says "AppleShare 3.0.1" is for 68000~68030 computers running System 7.0~7.5.1. Moving down one row says "AppleShare 4.0" but that "All users should update to AppleShare 4.0.1." Okay... Move down another row to that version. The comment on 4.0.1 only says compatibility with 040 computers which implies no compatibility with my 030 SE/30. Hmmm. Now skip down to the "Supported Mac OS Releases" table. I am running 7.5.5, so I scroll my eyes down to the AppleShare 4.2.1 section. Now scroll back up to the "Supported Platforms" table and note the lack of mention for 030 processors, but a specific mention of PPC and incompatibility for the 68000.

So this AppleShare info page seems to say that if you're running 7.5.5 you need AppleShare 4.2.1, but it does not enlighten SE/30 owners about compatibility for their machine when running System 7.5.5.

Cut through all the confusing compatibility info and get your 030 SE/30 running System 7.5.5 (and 7.6.1 and 8.1, if you have the appropriate ROM) by using OT 1.3 and AppleShare extension version 3.7.4 and applying the TCPQuantum fix on the Tiger Mac. (Again, this may work on Leopard, but I've not personally tried it.) I talk about this in detail on this Vintage Macs post.

And yes, I did at one time use "ShareWAY IP" (not "shareware IP") on my SE/30, but I no longer need that. Indeed, I find this new implementation to be better than ShareWay IP. Again, read through the posts in that Vintage Macs thread. The TCPQuantum fix (on the OS X Mac) is really a fix when used in conjunction with the appropriate AppleShare extension version. You can then use the Chooser to mount OS 10.4.11 drives just fine.

(And as I wrote in my final post in that Vintage Macs thread, if anyone has the means of linking to a Tiger Mac via the Chooser on System 7.1, I'd like to hear about. Ditto for a method of doing the same under System 6.0.8. I can get System 6 to link to my G4 Cube just fine, but only when I boot the Cube into OS 9.)