Getting started

[madsox]

Long time mac *user* here, now wanting to get into restoring/modding an old one for use in this modern world. I think the first Mac I used was a Plus, the first one I actually bought was a Classic II, but I never was very serious about maintaining them or tinkering. Now I want to - I'm thinking SE/30 as a platform, learn how to recap the boards and any other electrical work, get one working and add more modern stuff like BlueSCSI and ... I'm not sure what all. Where's a good starting discussion? (There must be one around this place). And then I get to search for a good machine that's not priced insanely, I'll be looking for advice on that too.

Let's see what the collective has to say!

 

[Phipli]

Welcome to the community

Now I want to - I'm thinking SE/30 as a platform, learn how to recap the boards and any other electrical work, get one working and add more modern stuff like BlueSCSI and ... I'm not sure what all.

I'd actually recommend starting with something like an LC 475 if you want to do start learning maintenance etc, or an SE (i.e. not /30) or Mac Plus if you want to get into just using a bit more with that retro compact feeling.

The reason for this is that SE/30s are very popular with people getting into the hobby, but they're a lot higher risk. This means if you buy one, it's more likely to be in horrific condition than most macs (IIsi and Classic aside), and you'll likely pay an arm and a leg for the privilege.

The 475 is much easier to work on and repair (recapping is often not just a case of replacing the capacitors, but also troubleshooting and repairing damage, which can be particularly tricky with the SE/30), while the SE and Plus are absolute tanks and they seem to mostly just work, with the SE being a little bit more expandable and compatible.

The risk with the SE/30 is that you'll have all the frustration up front before you get to decide if you enjoy the fun part of the hobby

 

[Snial]

<snip> Where's a good starting discussion? (There must be one around this place). And then I get to search for a good machine that's not priced insanely, I'll be looking for advice on that too.

OK, so your thread led me to have a look at what Vintage Macs were available on eBay. It's instructive, because as a whole working ones have definitely been getting quite a lot more expensive over the past few years.

Picking an SE/30 as a starting point is understandable. It's legendary! But that's also the problem, it's very sought after. So, you may get quite a few "I wouldn't start from there" replies. Also, you might end up regretting it, because you could easily start with that dream SE/30 and being new to the modding/fixing scene, wreck it before you have enough expertise.

It might be better therefore to start with a retro Mac, perhaps a more affordable compact Mac; that's working or working well enough for your immediate objectives (e.g. has a faulty floppy drive). Then you see what you can do with that and if you wreck it, you won't be that gutted. But you'll probably find that you'll get a lot more out of it than you expected.

Also, I'd set a budget before you do anything else, because otherwise you might get drawn into that dream vintage Mac; spend way more than you intended and that Mac doesn't turn out to be as awesome as it cost. It's a bit like with eBay, never bid so high you'd be unhappy even if you won.

Well, that's my 2p's worth of ladvice !

 

[madsox]

SE for a start/learning base makes a lot of sense. Is the MB construction, bus layout, etc. pretty similar to the 30? I would imagine they didn’t change too much, although the original SE didn’t have provision for an internal SCSI bay, did it?

I’ve heard the Classics were not as friendly to work on as the other compacts…

 

[akator70]

I agree with the idea of starting easier and lower cost than a SE/30. I would suggest getting one that is shown working in photos and with photos of the motherboard condition so that you've at least got a good starting point to repair and recap. When that one is done (repaired, recapped, restored, upgraded, etc.) play with it a bit to see where you want to go from there.

Even with an understanding of the concepts and work involved, starting with something that needs many, many repairs can be discouraging because there's very little return until the end. By starting with one that is more straightforward (ex., not needing complex motherboard repairs from being battery bombed) will lead to faster results, not just practicing the skills needed for the more complex repairs but getting the emotional reward that will make it easier to tackle the messy projects later.

 

[volvo242gt]

SE for a start/learning base makes a lot of sense. Is the MB construction, bus layout, etc. pretty similar to the 30? I would imagine they didn’t change too much, although the original SE didn’t have provision for an internal SCSI bay, did it?

I’ve heard the Classics were not as friendly to work on as the other compacts…

The SE is a 68000 powered SE/30. One that can have two floppy drives, a floppy and a SCSI hard drive, or two floppy drives and a SCSI hard drive. You can take an SE/30 board and run it in an SE. So, the architecture is the same. If you want a similar experience to an SE/30, the IIsi is a slightly faster modular version that can accept either SE/30 PDS cards or Nubus cards. Usually much cheaper.

 

[croissantking]

The risk with the SE/30 is that you'll have all the frustration up front before you get to decide if you enjoy the fun part of the hobby

I entered the hobby in 2022 with an SE/30 and it took me two years to get it running properly. So this is accurate.

 

[Byrd]

Welcome @madsox

The cockroach of the vintage Mac world is either the Mac Plus, or SE (few more issues with separate PSU and analogue board, but largely seem more reliable than SE/30 counterpart). Both are easy to fix and diagnose faults for, but you will be using the soldering iron on both more than you probably think. If you really dig the old school aesthetic, go the Plus, if you want something a little more usable with a more modern design, the Plus. PowerBooks are also cool if you focus on certain models with good LCDs, but the plastic aging/quality can be really hit and miss often you need two to make one good.

When you're ready and have improved your scouting skills for better prices, go the SE/30. Be warned though once you start upgrading, something else may fail and need attention on the SE/30, they are notorious for this. There are many an overpriced unit out there but with the knowledge you've learnt from the first Mac you'll be better equipped to pick up a project SE/30 that doesn't cause too many dramas.

 

[croissantking]

When you're ready and have improved your scouting skills for better prices, go the SE/30. Be warned though once you start upgrading, something else may fail and need attention on the SE/30, they are notorious for this. There are many an overpriced unit out there but with the knowledge you've learnt from the first Mac you'll be better equipped to pick up a project SE/30 that doesn't cause too many dramas.

It tends to be the logic board and the analog board that need plenty of attention. I've never had any issues from the power supplies, though I've only ever seen the Sony units.

Things get 'interesting' again when you start adding in PDS cards.

 

[Byrd]

Australian SE/30s tend to have the Astec or Singapore branded PSUs, neither are good news. Agree the Sony units even if failed come back pretty good with a recap.

 

[madsox]

@Byrd “cockroach of the Mac world”

But I see what you mean, and I do think I’m going to start with one of those. How much can the Plus be upgraded/modded, though? I’m pretty sure I can make an SE into something powerful enough for actual use, not serious “running a business on it” but day-to-day stuff, some retro gaming… etc. What can you cram into a Plus case?

 

[killvore]

+1 for the SE as a starting machine if you're not going for a pizza box. Main reason from my POV beyond what others have said is:
- they have ADB, so much easier to get mouse and keyboard than for the Mac Plus. And they will be compatible with a bunch of other macs if you do decide to expand the collection.
- they have PDS, so you can potentially add some fun stuff in there like an accelerator. The Mac Plus also has some capabilities like this but they are more limited and harder to come by.

The LC form factor is such a joy to work on, though! And mega easy to store, since it's tiny. So if one shows up for cheap I would just grab one. Even the 16-bit bus versions are totally usable with System 6.0.8. And the LC PDS is usable across a great number of machines!

 

[Snial]

@Byrd “cockroach of the Mac world”

But I see what you mean, and I do think I’m going to start with one of those. How much can the Plus be upgraded/modded, though? I’m pretty sure I can make an SE into something powerful enough for actual use, not serious “running a business on it” but day-to-day stuff, some retro gaming… etc. What can you cram into a Plus case?

The Plus is about as empty as an SE so there's a reasonable amount of space. However, it doesn't have a fan, so you shouldn't cram too much in! SCSI is supported, but it has no built-in expansion slot, so the only way to expand it is to remove the CPU and mount a daughterboard with the CPU (or an accelerated CPU).

An easy win for the Plus would be an internal BlueSCSI (or ZuluSCSI). Also PICO-based LCD displays are also possible, but then you'd have to find an LCD of the right size. The advantage with the LCD is the lower power, which enables you to stuff more in.

However, @killvore 's comment is very apt, he makes some good points about ADB and LCs.

 

[killvore]

Ooh I just remembered that the SE is also more compatible with older software than the SE/30, especially games! Anything from trivial stuff like the torches in Beyond Dark Castle not animating correctly, to full on crashes on load (affects plenty of early games).