Dumb AppleTalk Question: Networking Classic and SE

[Garrett]

Since my SE can only read/write to double-density disks and all my software is on high-density disks, I've been thinking of a temporary workaround to test out software on the SE until I get a FloppyEmu for my Classic and SE. I recently got my Classic up and running, and I had an idea to use AppleTalk as a way to move files (applications) to the SE for testing. The SE came with a serial cable that fits perfectly into the printer and modem slots.

I tried setting them up last night but had no luck whatsoever. On the Classic I go into Chooser and make AppleTalk active. However, on the SE, nothing shows up - even after making AppleTalk active on it through the Chooser, too. Both machines are connected to the printer port. The Classic is running 6.0.7 on the internal hard drive, the SE is running 6.0.8 on a double-density boot floppy. I believe the Classic was setup with an AppleTalk network by the previous owner.

The first time I made AppleTalk active before connecting the cable. Would that have possibly caused an issue? Over on one of the Facebook groups people kept mentioning AppleTalk and File Sharing control panels. However, those are not present on either machine - perhaps that didn't come along until System 7, or I'm missing some software?

It's not crucial I get AppleTalk working (after all, I plan on getting my hands on a FloppyEmu in a couple months) but it would be nice.

 

[karrots]

You mention a serial cable. I believe you actually need local talk adapters not just a serial cable between the two computers.

 

[ignatio]

You can do it will a null modem cable and a terminal program like clarisworks communication. A regular serial cable won't work in this way.

 

[ArmorAlley]

@Garrett

Keep an eye out on eBay for an ethernet card for the SE. I expect it will cost about $50-$75. Mine is from Shiva and cost $50-ish before postage.

I find that ethernet is one of the best way to transfer data to & from old macs. Sneakernet is also good.

It won't solve your immediate problem but will make life easier in the future.

LocalTalk works but is so very slow. I can send you some LocalTalk adaptors for the price of postage but you can probably get them cheaper locally.

It was slow back in 1989 but a minor miracle on the grounds that it was possible and easy.

 

[Garrett]

So I guess I am missing something... I knew it couldn't be as easy as plugging the serial cable into the two machines.  :lol:  I'm not going to lie, I'm getting slightly confused by all of the "xxxTalk" systems out there - AppleTalk, LocalTalk, etc. Either way, I'm guessing I would need to get an adapter. Since I plan on getting the FloppyEmu (which will eliminate most of the problems via SneakerNet) I'd rather just wait.

The ethernet card for the SE sounds interesting, especially with the possibility of connecting the computer to the internet. (I'm guessing that could happen, if I upgraded the memory and upgraded to System 7. Although I'm guessing the SE would be really slooooow on System 7.) As for transferring files, the FloppyEmu seems to be a decent option for me.

Thanks everyone for your input. I think I'm going to go to bed - it's 2:30 in the morning and I'm tired.

 

[dochilli]

This should work for you:

https://www.macintoshrepository.org/articles/35--connecting-two-macs-with-a-serial-connection

Did you use a printer cable?

Here is another website for networking classis macs:

http://www.applefool.com/se30/

 

[dochilli]

For reaching the internet this may help:

http://ivanx.com/a2server/

Or:

https://www.macip.net/

Both need a localTalkBridge (hardware or software) and a raspberryPi. I use both and they work with an Classic.

 

[LaPorta]

The real issue you have you actually mentioned in your first post: System 6. It took me a while to realize as well, but System 6 has no built-in file sharing capability. You can only connect to a server, not host anything. System 7 and up has that capability. The other methods that these guys mentioned may work, but you will not be able to network two System 6 machines together without turning one into a dedicated server with software, and there's not really any reason to do that because it changes the system software entirely.

 

[cheesestraws]

There's a certain number of misconceptions being thrown around in this thread, and people are making it waaaaay more complicated than it needs to be.

First, the direct question:

Over on one of the Facebook groups people kept mentioning AppleTalk and File Sharing control panels. However, those are not present on either machine - perhaps that didn't come along until System 7, or I'm missing some software?

This is probably your problem.  Personal File Sharing didn't come along until System 7.  So for one computer to be able to share a folder to the other it either needs to be running AppleShare server software or it needs to be running System 7 or above.  They won't show up in the chooser until then; when you select a service in the chooser on the left hand side, only computers that actually offer that service appear in the right hand side.  It's not a list of all nodes on the network.  (edit: @LaPorta beat me to this!  We were obviously both writing our replies at the same time...)

Stick a smallish 7.0/7.1 installation on the Classic and you'll probably be fine (if you have enough RAM for it).  Don't worry about adapter boxes or anything complicated.  A "proper" Apple serial cable ought to work fine.

Other notes based on the thread as a whole:

You mention a serial cable. I believe you actually need local talk adapters not just a serial cable between the two computers.

You can do it will a null modem cable and a terminal program like clarisworks communication. A regular serial cable won't work in this way.

You do not need LocalTalk boxes/cabling.  All those boxes contain is electrical isolation and bus termination, nothing clever at all.  Here's the circuit diagram from Inside Appletalk:



All you actually need here is a serial cable with swapped Tx/Rx pins and, I believe, both the + and - pins for Tx and Rx wired through.  This means that, yes, you can have a serial cable that will work for some things that won't work for LocalTalk, either because some of the pins are missing and it will only do RS232, or because it's not crossed over, and you can't see the difference visually.  It's annoying.  Actual Apple serial cables usually work; some third-party ones do not.  I have a weird blue one that works perfectly that I use regularly.  No idea where it came from.

I'm not going to lie, I'm getting slightly confused by all of the "xxxTalk" systems out there - AppleTalk, LocalTalk, etc.

'Talk' was one of Apple's go-to generic words, and it's a bit annoying.  A summary here:

• AppleTalk is the protocol that the computers speak.  This is the same level of protocol as IP; computers talk to each other using it using addresses, but they don't mind very much what actual wires they're talking AppleTalk over. 
  
• LocalTalk and EtherTalk are the bits of software that allow you to talk AppleTalk over either RS422 cables or Ethernet, respectively.
  

There's some confusion here because before EtherTalk was a thing, AppleTalk referred indiscriminately to the protocol and the wiring, which was later called LocalTalk.  But it's best to just ignore that and go "AppleTalk is the protocol, Ether/LocalTalk are ways of getting it down actual wires"

 

[dochilli]

Here you can see a description for a client/server configuration with one Mac with system 6 and one with system 7

https://metalbabble.wordpress.com/2020/03/21/sharings-caring/

 

[ignatio]

All you actually need here is a serial cable with swapped Tx/Rx pins and, I believe, both the + and - pins for Tx and Rx wired through.  This means that, yes, you can have a serial cable that will work for some things that won't work for LocalTalk, either because some of the pins are missing and it will only do RS232, or because it's not crossed over, and you can't see the difference visually.  It's annoying.  Actual Apple serial cables usually work; some third-party ones do not.  I have a weird blue one that works perfectly that I use regularly.  No idea where it came from.

Swapped RX/TX pins, a null modem cable like I mentioned.

There is one for sale here:

https://www.opentip.com/Electronics/Iec-Apple-Mac-Mini-Din-Male-To-Male-Local-Talk-p-1575403.html

 

[cheesestraws]

Swapped RX/TX pins, a null modem cable like I mentioned.

Yup, but you also talked about using ClarisWorks and xmodem and stuff, which is massive overkill, which was what I meant by a misconception in your post, not the type of cable.  If you have that cable you can just run LocalTalk over it and AppleShare.

 

[Dog Cow]

The SE came with a serial cable that fits perfectly into the printer and modem slots.

Is it an Apple-branded serial cable? The Apple StyleWriter cable will work to create a LocalTalk network between two Macintosh computers (or a Macintosh and a LaserWriter).

 

[ignatio]

Yup, but you also talked about using ClarisWorks and xmodem and stuff, which is massive overkill, which was what I meant by a misconception in your post, not the type of cable.  If you have that cable you can just run LocalTalk over it and AppleShare.

I see, my head was in the transfer files from mac to pc space.

 

[Garrett]

Is it an Apple-branded serial cable? The Apple StyleWriter cable will work to create a LocalTalk network between two Macintosh computers (or a Macintosh and a LaserWriter).

It appears to be an Apple-branded serial cable. Below is a photo of one end of the cable. Both ends plugged right in to the printer ports on both computers.

End also has "TWNPI3" and 590-0552-A molded in.

 

[Dog Cow]

It appears to be an Apple-branded serial cable. Below is a photo of one end of the cable. Both ends plugged right in to the printer ports on both computers.

Then you ought to be good to go.

 

[Garrett]

I'll try again, but as previously mentioned both machines are running versions of System 6. (System 6.0.7 and 6.0.8 on the Classic and SE, respectively. The Classic is the "host.") Enabling AppleTalk on the Classic doesn't do anything, because when I turn on the SE it doesn't show up in the Chooser?

Perhaps I'm still missing something or I'm forgetting something. I usually plug the cable into both machines, power the Classic on, THEN power the SE on, then enable AppleTalk on the Classic. With that said, do I need to enable AppleTalk on the SE and restart it or something? There are no special AppleTalk or File Sharing menus in the Control Panel on either machine.

As previously mentioned, while it would be nice to get these two machines talking via AppleTalk, it's not the end of the world. I'm hoping to buy a FloppyEmu in the near future, eliminating the need for the AppleTalk. (Since my only use for the AppleTalk, at least at the moment, is to share apps from the Classic to the SE, since the SE can't read the high-density disks.)

 

[LaPorta]

Regrettably, you aren't missing anything. In their current state, neither machine will "host" files via AppleTalk. You need System 7 or higher.

 

[davidg5678]

both machines are running versions of System 6

I think the lack of System 7 is probably the only reason it is not yet working. System 6 can connect to file servers on other computers just fine. What System 6 it cannot do out of the box is host its own server to be accessed by another computer. If you install System 7 on one or both of the computers, you would then be able to do either single or bi-directional file transfers with just a single cable. A fully loaded copy of System 7.5.5 might be a little overkill for these machines, but I think System 7.1 is fairly safe choice in terms of the trade-off between added features and slowdown.