Best Preservation Methods For Macs?

[Unknown_K]

The point is a P3 1Ghz or early P4 PC is worthless today but usable, an old 68k or pre g4 PPC is just useless. There are plenty of usable but discarded 5 year old computers out there that giving somebody a 10+ year old unsupported relic is not a good idea. it is getting to the point where you can get a new system for a few hundred with a warrenty.

I think educational software in general is crap and has always been that way.

 

[beachycove]

I actually think that, objectively speaking, it seems pretty silly to go around using a machine running a multi-user OS designed for a server environment and capable of doing maybe a hundred thousand times more than anyone ever asks of it, rather than an appliance that just does its thing. What I think is even more silly is that we pay hundreds or thousands for these multi-user über-machines and then in a year or two, regard them as morbidly redundant. Would you do that with a good saw? a washing machine? a book? a classic wooden boat?

Alas, the world does not agree (being pretty stupid, on the whole), and thus like everyone else here, I have little choice in the matter. The chief illustration of that fact can be the observation that here we are on this forum, which is a PITA to access using many of the machines we converse about with such enthusiasm. As much as one might regret it, in short, families and schoolchildren these days can't actually do without the web for many and even most purposes, which has the unavoidable implication that any 68k or early PPC machine is a poor substitute for a more recent computer that can actually do the web-based things people need them to do.

Where connectivity is the name of the game, in other words, and where the rules of the game are in constant (and perhaps deliberate) flux, machines that cannot make connections because they can't play by the rules are pretty much curiosities. Call it what you will — a mistake, a shame, progress, a money-making racket, whatever — it is just how it is. And until users change the game being played, perhaps by government regulation out of disgust at the mountains of e-waste (which it is in more ways than one) being generated, it will continue that way.

 

[Gorgonops]

I personally do believe there's something to be said for giving a kid a massively obsolete computer of their own to muck with if the kid shows some interest in seriously engaging with "computers", something they can experiment with/take apart/break/repair without dire consequences. However, I do say that with the asterisk that the machines that qualify as the best computer learning tools are the ones *least like Macintoshes*.

The most educational machines I ever owned were a pair of TRS-80 Model I's I bought at a garage sale. They were a bizarre combination of a surprisingly engaging user interface and DOS (much friendlier than MS-DOS or CP/M in many respects) and *really hackish* (or, as Apple would paint it, "minimalistic and elegant") hardware. In addition to the casual machine-language futzing I hit those machines with the soldering iron, pressed together cables with vice grips, interfaced them to hardware stolen from more modern machines, and all of these things were surprisingly easy because the Model I hardware was so simple and forgiving yet, believe it or not, "standards compliant". (Much hardware harvested from an IBM PC works in a TRS-80 with little or no work.) Those machines were weird enough to be compelling yet simple enough to *fully understand*. Undoubtedly everyone around my age has some 8-bit wonder that they could similarly wax poetically about. Those machines taught you to about *computers* simply from using them. You had it shoved down your throat, and if you had the temper for it you enjoyed it.

The problem with an old Macintosh is it's *not* going to do the same thing unless you really force it. It's designed to be an appliance that runs applications. Using it will teach you what it takes to use the particular applications you run, IE, the syntax trivia and mouse motor memory it takes to type a letter or click a Stickybear. It won't (as a consequence of its arcane primitiveness) accidentally teach you how a computer *works*, and an "application oriented" person who doesn't want to learn a computer is going to be put off when they discover that they can't run the applications that the "application-using world" expects them to be able to run. ("What, you can't open that .doc file I sent you?" "Why aren't you on Facebook... your computer can't load it? Lame.") And to top it off, what hard-computer skills someone *does* learn from mucking with an old Mac won't translate well to anything else. ("Uhm, rebuild your desktop? You don't have to do that?" "Where's the popup to allocate memory to Netscape in OS X? There isn't one?" "Wait, your computer *doesn't* crash half the time when you switch from your web browser to your email program while a page is loading? I gave up even trying to do that on mine...") There just isn't the push to take it to "the next level" with a Macintosh... indeed, outside of things like Hypercard the learning curve for programming the Classic MacOS is one of the steepest ones there is. As for hardware hacking Macintosh-compatible (68k-early PPC-vintage) hardware is rare and getting rarer. Heck, nearly every plug on a beige Macintosh besides Ethernet is *completely* absent from modern systems. It's still fairly trivial to maintain a 15 year old PC even if you're limited to going to "Fry's" or another Big Box retailer (Although the "why bother?" question comes up) but a similar age Mac? Not so much. It gets better of course once you break the "iMac threshold", but if you're above that line you should be running OS X if you possibly can, thus making for a different discussion. Then it's no longer an "Ancient Mac", it's just an annoyingly slow and crufty "modern" one.

It just really doesn't seem worth sticking the "needy" with a 68k/early PPC when, as stated, a decent caliber Pentium III or 4 is just as "cheap"... arguably cheaper since a machine like that will easily run a modern Linux distribution with all-free apps while the Mac will almost certainly require at least some software that is either purchased or... scrounged (read "pirated"?). The Pentium III+ will give someone a decent Internet experience *and* at the same time be more accessible for hardware hackery... despite being newer it's actually more "disposable". Seems like a no-brainer to me. If you really want them to run Stickybear slap BasiliskII or SheepShaver on it, it'll run it faster than the real thing.

Anyway... Bleah. :^b

 

[phreakout]

Okay. I guess I opened a big can of worms on my last post. Judging by the amount of responses generated since then.

Basically, I don't see it as cruel or punishing to give people of low-income a Mac that may very well be way out of date. And I am under the knowledge that eventually these retro Macs will be handed down to the next individual when that time comes and continue that cycle. I am hoping that these machines will help teach everyone young and old how to type, to use a computer and to learn more topics through other software. For me, neither I nor my parents had the money to buy a computer, since they were still way too expensive. When the time came that a teacher wanted to get rid of one for free, I gladly accepted it. It may have been outdated, a DOS , Windows 3.x or C64 type machine, but I didn't care; it was a computer, nonetheless.

The software may be decades old, but the content and teaching tools are still valid. Math Blaster still teaches kids numbers and math, Reader Rabbit will still teach someone how to read and HyperCard will put basic programming ideas into the hands of those who want that type of career in life.

I guess I've said all I can for now. I'll leave the rest for you to think over and discuss.

73 de Phreakout. :rambo:

PS: Read "Silicon Snake Oil: Second Thoughts About The Information Superhighway" and "High-Tech Heretic: Why Computers Don't Belong in Schools" by Clifford Stoll. They may appear anti-technology at first, but he did a d-mn good job at pointing out the goods and bad, while saying that it is up to us for making the final decisions that effect our future.

 

[nanoseq]

I was in Kindergarten in 1995, about the time I began to learn about programming from my kid's V-Tech laptop that came with a version of BASIC. My uncle gave me an old 286 laptop that booted DOS and QBASIC off of a floppy, and this was at a time when Windows 95 was out and on our home computer. I also had a lot of exposure to 68K Macs at school and fell in love with them.

Computer skills are computer skills. If you threw me an operating system I'd never used before, I could figure it out. I understand how a mouse works and the basics of a computer from using them all my life. If the kid learns how to launch programs, save files, and check his email through a 68K or PPC Mac, they can easily figure out how on a newer platform since it's still the same concept. It's just OS X dock vs opening the folder and double clicking the icon.

 

[beachycove]

There are clearly situations where an old Mac is still an excellent thing to give to somebody, but they are few and far between.

• There is first of all the collector/ tinkerer who will genuinely enjoy the thing (and most likely join the 68kmla).
   
  Three years ago, I gave a PowerBook 540c to a mentally handicapped adult, installed At Ease with some simple games, and it is still being used more or less daily. He has some friends like himself who have asked where to buy the machine and the games, because of course they can't find anything like them in the shops. Where else could you find such ease of use than on an old Mac, prior to OSX?
   
  Just today at work I used Acrobat 5 in System 9 on a Pismo to do something that, as far as I know, otherwise could not have been done without actually buying a current version of Acrobat; the price I paid for version 5 at a Garage Sale sure beats the price of it new. Thus the Pismo+OS9.2+Acrobat 5 handily outperformed the high-end Intel iMac on my office desk for usefulness.

The trouble is that kids and families are generally not aware of such niche uses, haven't the room for a machine that can do them, or have the standard prejudice that new technology is always best. That's what the culture teaches them. But most of all, they want the web (my teen-aged kids, for example, don't know their friends' phone numbers, such is the ubiquity of FaceBook), and that is the real limiting factor.

 

[tyrannis]

Glad to see there's healthy opposition to these trends..

 

[Mac128]

Thus the Pismo+OS9.2+Acrobat 5 handily outperformed the high-end Intel iMac on my office desk for usefulness.

You said it ...

... despite this topic going way off track of what I intended ...

... but that's exactly why I keep my Pismo around, because I don't feel the need to pony up yet more money to run the latest greatest version of software which predecessor runs just fine on my G3 Pismo, yet is crippled under Snow Leopard.

Computers are a function of need. For years after the Mac SE was truly productive, A friend was able to use it to develop some FIleMaker software which he then took into work and installed under Windows '98 and OS 8 where it ran flawlessly over a network. The fact is, if you need a way to type papers, reports, novels, ideas, manage accounting, inventory possessions, and a host of other things even the original 128K Mac can handle, a 90s era 68K Mac will handle that task just fine. I do believe that it is unrealistic to expect a 68K Mac to substitute in any way for the purposes a computer built in the last 5 years was. The good news is, there are ways around this, a $99 smart phone for instance, or the computer at work – which comes with full IT support as well. But having a computer of any kind at home that makes a task not otherwise possible, is important no matter its limitations. That cannot be underestimated. If the end user is made aware of its limitations, the Mac's software is far easier to use for specific tasks than a PC of the same era.

Now, to get back on track ... my concern was that I have a pristine 128K Mac, which I'd like to keep that way, so daily use and tinkering is out. But I also don't want it to fester away somewhere and ultimately become non-functional. I've often wondered, if a brand new, never opened 128K was discovered in a cool dry basement somewhere, whether it would work perfectly once un-boxed and turned on. And even if it did, how long it would operate flawlessly. At the end of the day this is a fantasy and most of the units we come across will have endured some hard use during their lives and must be treated accordingly. But some are in better shape than others, and those should not be further subjected to deterioration if at all possible. So what's the best way to preserve them? Is limited use truly better than routine use and maintenance? Or will such on again off again use actually cause more damage? Unlike a car analogy as alluded to above, there are not that many mechanical parts or fluids to settle in and cause major damage and mechanical failure between use. Alternately, I have often heard that TVs in bars lasted longer than home televisions because they were on all the time, the electronics in their happiest state: on, not constantly going from cold to warm.

 

[Osgeld]

the cold to warm is something to think about, especially on systems where the solder may already be fragile, but even that is kind of an extreme, is your house really really cold, does a mac instantly heat up? yes over time it can have effect, but unless there is a design flaw in the machine (early apple ///) this should be well within tolerances

bout the only thing your saving IMO by not using a machine is its exposure to the outside world, course we know of the damages that can happen to the case plastics, but also in terms of power spikes or even "dirty" power which of course hammers the capacitors (which can be somewhat restricted by the use of a really good surge suppressor or ups)

the tv's in bars thing does hold some truth keeping in mind any tv made past the 1980's is mostly empty and heat is not a major issue (it defiantly would be in old analog n tube systems), but it also burns out the crt the quickest

 

[Mac128]

it also burns out the crt the quickest

What happens when the brightness knob is turned all the way down? Would that prolong the life of the CRT?

The way you describe it, I should set my 128K Mac up in a vacuum sealed room similar to the CIA computer room in Mission Impossible. A protected and regulated power source, temperature and humidity controlled, with HEPA filtered air, UV light filters and possibly minimal O2 mixture to inhibit the oxidation of the plastic compounds.

 

[Osgeld]

What happens when the brightness knob is turned all the way down? Would that prolong the life of the CRT?

you wont be able to use it but yes it may prolong the crt visually, on a monochrome screen I dont think it is as big of a deal cause the pixels are so much larger physically vs a 3 color per pixel screen (course monochrome screens tend to burn in easier too)

The way you describe it, I should set my 128K Mac up in a vacuum sealed room similar to the CIA computer room in Mission Impossible. A protected and regulated power source, temperature and humidity controlled, with HEPA filtered air, UV light filters and possibly minimal O2 mixture to inhibit the oxidation of the plastic compounds.

Ideally yes, that is why they make those kind's of rooms (although MI's is a movie exaggeration) but its not realistic ,

but you can also sorta mimic some of the attributes of a CIA room, temp is generally easy in a residence, humidity can be handled with a k-mart machine, and filtered power can come from a good solid surge suppressor (often the big ones have big caps) or a battery backup

Is it really necessary? that depends on your end goal

me, its a 2$ power strip and a good dusting on the inside every once in a while

or... think of it this way, if your using it, when (lets say) a cap or battery craps out, least it doesnt have years or even decades to eat into the board

 

[Osgeld]

just had an idea, get some heavy opaque fabric and stitch up some covers, when the machines don't need to be pretty or used you have uv and dust protection

that is just about everything except atmosphere gas control

 

[Scott Baret]

Batteries are a toughy. Even a good battery can leak--I lost a Classic logic board last year from that. (I also lost my LiteBrite when I was young that way--a devastating loss indeed for a toddler).

If the machine is going to be stored, plain and simple, leave the battery out. If you have an older SE, a II/IIx/IIfx, or some other old machine that has the battery soldered to the board, just put in a battery holder in its place. Most older Macs can boot without the battery anyway, and if you have a machine that does require it to be installed (such as an LC 475), just keep one on hand to stick in when you are running the machine.

Another thing to point out--hard drives don't last forever. They need to be spinned up periodically but also not used a whole lot, as that will add to the clock of MTBF. In the future, we may need to start working on the insides of hard drives to keep the machines truly original.

Don't forget your floppy disk head cleaner kit. Buy one if it shows up, they won't be around forever. The same goes for good Mac parts for the machines you want to keep--get one or two spares for each part (more if it's something that fails all the time like a Plus power supply). Store these in the same way you'd store a Mac itself--in an environment free of extreme temperatures and humidity.

 

[BeniD82]

Hard drives don't last forever? The elements affect the lifespan of hardware? Tell me about it... I moved to VA last year and had my Colour Classic stored in the basement until recently, which in retrospect was a mistake. When I finally got my little machine unpacked and fired up, I was welcomed by a rather unsettling screaching/hissing sound produced by its hard drive -- it apparently had died a horribly slow death while being stowed away. :'( This has been the second time that I've encurred substantial data loss due to a hard drive failing, granted, in this case nothing really important has been lost since I had most data backed up and most of my productivity software on a cloned drive image on my other computer.

Mechanical components such as the motors in fans or the fluid bearing in hard drives are extremely prone to failure, therefore I do concur that "routine checkups" should be done on a more regular basis to prevent substantial damage from happening.

 

[techknight]

Well we were all kids once. when i was a kid, someone gave me an IBM portable 5155 in 1996/1997 time period. I was in the 5th grade. Well of course electronics oriented that i am, i fell in love with it. tore it apart and put it together to figure out what made it tick. then of course i got DOS manuals and all that fun stuff and thats how i got started. thats how i know DOS, and computers as they are today. all about evolution. in my case, i always figured starting you off with something very old/outdated allows a person to grow into someone that is extremely tech savvy as she/he evolves into the most modern stuff, like I did. as i now have a core i7 machine when it first came out. Any concepts/knowledge/tricks of the trade learned from the early machines and operating systems is still used today, and your much better off.

i feel if i was introduced into a more modern machine as my first computer, i would have no experience with the past machines and how things evolved from then to what they are now, and i would be "dumber" with operating systems. I also have a very strong knowledge of computer hardware and how things work from evolution of the computer from the first one i had till now. Heck, I am a novice software programmer and ASM level microcontroller programmer. But i feel i wouldn't be in this position without knowledge of how things worked in the early days. All this self-taught of course.

Just an example: I put my macintosh LC to use by writing custom software that uses the serial port that monitors a control system that i built with a microcontroller. I have a "weather station" outside the house that reads wind speed, wind direction, relative humidity, barometric pressure, and temperature. this of course is transmitted via a cheap chinese AM transmitter modulator running at 450mhz. receiver is at the macintosh serial port, where the software program reports back the readings. This is just an example of what i have put macintoshes to use for...

Another example: I used an early PPC machine as a central gate operator controller. Built a microcontroller-based keypad that communicates with the mac via serial port. mac has software application that reads the code entered at the keypad, verifies it with known account information stored in a PHP/HTTP based server, and returns a success or fail to the keypad to open up the gate. worked beautiful and it still works to this day. I didnt know if an apache/mysql/php existed for the early PPC macintosh for OS8 or i would have kept it strictly macintosh based. but i had to use a macintosh/PC pair for it all to work correctly. I think i used a PPC 7100/120 as it had ethernet and stuff.

Thats my 2 cents.

 

[Charlieman]

Scott Baret makes some good points.

If you are protecting your Mac from sunlight (which you should), just close the curtains as a starting point. Put a thick cotton covering over the precious Mac (an unworn pillow case or sheet will suffice) and then seek out some dense black plastic sheet to put on top. You need the cotton sheet so that the plastic sheet is not in direct contact with the Mac case.

By chance, my Mac collection is on the west side of my house which warms up more slowly in spring and summer. In winter it is close to the central heating system. Thus my Macs don't experience too much temperature variation -- or they don't suffer extremes. They do suffer from the threat of a drenching from water cisterns, thus my tanks are modern and checked. The Macs would survive exposure to clean water but not the manuals and magazines and boxes.

 

[BarnacleGrim]

Here's one for the "old computers for the poor" camp:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/21/digital_divide_worsened_by_tech/

Perhaps an aptly upgraded 603 or 604 or a G3 with a good suite of creativity and curiosity-inducing software would strike a good balance. Or maybe the same with Linux, perhaps sparking some interest in code having to compile source for PPC instead of just downloading binaries.